Author Topic: Generator Pulley source  (Read 14223 times)

ironhead

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Generator Pulley source
« on: April 13, 2006, 10:06:42 PM »
Howdy group,

I have just found out that George at Utterpwr is no longer able to supply the Armand grooved serpentine belt pulleys for the ST generator heads.  I have been meaning to order one for months but in normal drag ass fashion I failed to get around to ordering it until now that it's too late. :-\.   I'm trying to avoid using a double V belt but it's lookin more and more likely.

Does anyone know anywhere that sells grooved pullies in the size most of us use?  Aboout 8 1/4 inch diameter. 

I also heard it was possible to have a double grooved V pully machined down and grooved but have never seen it done.

Any ideas????

Mike

GuyFawkes

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2006, 10:43:49 PM »
serious question.

what is wrong with the original start-o-matic style double vee belt?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Jim Mc

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2006, 11:10:45 PM »


what is wrong with the original start-o-matic style double vee belt?

No kidding.  We'll soon hear posts claiming how much more efficient the serpentine belt is.  Let's see the numbers, someone??

There seems to be some serious 'group think' going on regarding the serpentine belt superiority.  A plain old common double B section V belt is just fine.  These are commonly referred to as 'banded' belts.  Seen here:

http://www.goodyearindustrialproducts.com/powertransmission/products/morebanded.html


trigzy

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2006, 11:13:23 PM »
Guy,
 Â   Nothing wrong with them, just serpentine belts are more convienient, at least in N.A.  Industrial grade V-belts are (more) expensive and harder to find in North America than serpentine belts.  Serpentine pulleys are readily made by several US vendors, and the belts slip directly over the Lister flywheels.   This means we only need to add to the generator, not the engine as well.  

Mike Monteith @ Listeroids/USA makes them - all sizes.  Check out his info in the "Dealer Roundup" thread in "Listeroid Engines".

Steve  
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Mikofox

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2006, 12:35:55 AM »
I intend to use ribbed belts as well if I can find the pulleys. Just personal preference.
Optibelt has a selection that may work for some applications. I just don't know yet if they are available in Canada or the U.S..
I know their belts are excellent, together with the Continental brand.

http://www.optibelt.com/pdf_neu/metall_rbs_tb.pdf
Their complete .pdf catalog is here: http://www.gummi-jaeger.de/de/download/Antriebstechnik.pdf (large PDF)

They have adjustable motor (head) mounts as well. (pictures and drawings, if you need ideas how to build yourself)
« Last Edit: April 14, 2006, 12:40:40 AM by Mikofox »
Skype Me: Mikofox

ironhead

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2006, 07:01:14 AM »
Guy and Jim,

There's nothing at all wrong with V belt drives... or dial telephones , or electric typewriters, or TV 's with antennas or even ovens that cook using heat.  Some just prefer other means of reaching the same goal.  If the genset needs starting while I'm not here my wife couldn't crank a double V belt without the neighbors help.  No friction drag with a serpentine belt. 

Good luck

MC

europachris

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2006, 01:19:13 PM »
You can also buy industrial "L" section poly-v belts and pulleys.  Pulleys are from Browning, and the belts are made by several vendors.  L section is the next larger size up from the automotive "K" section you find at NAPA.  A 6 rib L section belt is about the same width as an auto 8 rib belt, and is rated for something like 5 horsepower PER RIB.

Pulleys/bushings are available in all sizes.  I bought a 4.2" pulley and an 8" pulley for my Changfa R185/Markon 3.2KW head setup.  NOT cheap, the total with bushings was about $180 for the set.  The 8" pulley alone was about $92 less tax.

The belts themselves are about the same price as a NAPA auto belt.  $15 for the 50" belt for the Changfa setup, and about $35 for a 91.5" belt for a Listeroid setup.

It might be expensive to setup properly, but the poly-v drive does indeed have very low friction and it runs sooooooo smooth.

chris

binnie

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2006, 02:24:40 PM »
Mike, You might want to check out this source for the pulley. Much cheaper than the ones Chris got, and a custom source for Listeroids. Check the new Heat exchanger for the Muffler system too. Nice! We have a member who ordered one  & I am just waiting to see how well it works. Try this:
http://rockymountainpowersource.com/K-Section-Pulleys.html
binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2006, 02:40:18 PM »
Guy and Jim,

There's nothing at all wrong with V belt drives... or dial telephones , or electric typewriters, or TV 's with antennas or even ovens that cook using heat.  Some just prefer other means of reaching the same goal.  If the genset needs starting while I'm not here my wife couldn't crank a double V belt without the neighbors help.  No friction drag with a serpentine belt. 
Good luck

MC

oh puhleeeese

there's more friction in the mains than there is in a double vee belt setup, hey I should know, I actually run one as opposed to repeating FUD.

if there is no friction drag on a serpentine belt then it ain't connected.

Serpentine belts have three advantages over vee belts

1/ a given belt will take a tighter radius - doesn't apply to lister(oids)

2/ a given belt will take a reverse / negative radius over an idler - doesn't apply to lister(oids)

3/ a given belt will run quieter, there is some argument that in some circumstances it will wear less - doesn't apply to lister(oids)

V-belt drives are a common means of transmitting horsepower and reducing speed. They are a quiet, low-cost product, requiring little maintenance.

These drives transmit power through friction created by a wedging action of the belt in the sheave groove. V-belts work optimally with speed ratios of up to 6:1, but are available with drive ratios up to 10:1.

V-belts are applied in a variety of applications but work best in applications greater than 500 RPM. They offer a great benefit in that they will slip upon overload, thus protecting other, more expensive equipment from load surges.

In some applications, where service factors of 2.0 or higher are applied, a chokable situation can exist where the V-belt will not slip but instead will stall out the motor.

The service life of a properly designed V-drive is approximately 20,000 to 25,000 hrs. This life can be dramatically less if the drive is not installed or applied properly. V-belt drives are limited to a maximum misalignment of 1/2º, and standard belts are limited to operating
temperatures from -40ºF to 130ºF.

Published belt ratings are based on a temperature of 85ºF. For every 35ºF above the baseline temperature, the life will be cut in half. In addition to ambient temperatures, excessive slip (one cause of which is worn sheave grooves), tight bends, and poor ventilation can lead to increased belt operating temperatures.

Serpentine belts require alignment to within 1/4º
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

ironhead

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2006, 04:16:28 PM »
Didn't mean to come off as sarcastic if that's how it was taken Guy.  But I'm not preaching the company line either.  I've designed and installed direct drive and belt drive generator systems for marine use for the last 8 years.  I maintained them for a long number of years before that.  V drives are my choice in these applications even on the higher speed diesels.
I wanted to use a flat belt for my own use because of easier starting and I only need to buy one pulley rather than two.  I'm a cheap bastard.

Thanks for all the ideas and sources.   I'll check them out.

Tom

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2006, 04:16:40 PM »
When you get into a double belt system there is a LOT more potential for friction if the groves are not machined/worn exactly the same. Then you get the belts fighting against each other and a lot of squeaking and heat. A mismatch belt set or a misalignment can lead to this problem. I wonder what the testing method was that George B. used to come up with the 14% figure shown on his web site?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

europachris

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2006, 04:22:27 PM »
Mike, You might want to check out this source for the pulley. Much cheaper than the ones Chris got, and a custom source for Listeroids. Check the new Heat exchanger for the Muffler system too. Nice! We have a member who ordered one  & I am just waiting to see how well it works. Try this:
http://rockymountainpowersource.com/K-Section-Pulleys.html
binnie

Nice pulleys, but not much cheaper than what I bought.  I'd got that route if starting with a Listeroid and 1800 rpm head, though.  In my case, I needed a 4.2" pulley for a 3600 rpm head I already had, so I picked a L section 6 rib.  That was about $50.  But, then I 'missed the boat' on the 6/1's from Joel/George and settled on an R185 Changfa, which then required a 8" pulley to match up to the one I already had, making it a pretty expensive drive setup.

Looking back, I should have went with a ST5 head and direct drive, and just sell the head I already have.  Furthermore, it won't start my well pump, so I need a bigger head anyway now.....

Chris

Jim Mc

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2006, 04:46:42 PM »
...I only need to buy one pulley rather than two...



You seem to be assuming that you can't drive a v-belt directly from the flywheel.  Why is that?

Works fine.  In fact, check an older version of Marks' Standard Handbook for Mech Engrs.  There's real design guidelines in there for this exact configuration - A V belt driven from a large non-grooved sheave to a smaller pitch diameter conventional V-grooved sheave.
IOW, you don't need grooves in the flywheel to use a convetional V-belt. 

europachris

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2006, 04:52:22 PM »

You seem to be assuming that you can't drive a v-belt directly from the flywheel.  Why is that?

Works fine.  In fact, check an older version of Marks' Standard Handbook for Mech Engrs.  There's real design guidelines in there for this exact configuration - A V belt driven from a large non-grooved sheave to a smaller pitch diameter conventional V-grooved sheave.
IOW, you don't need grooves in the flywheel to use a convetional V-belt. 


---> Good points!  With the huge radius of the 6/1 flywheel, there's enough surface engagement (just like the serp belt setup) to give plenty of drive power.

I just wonder if you'd get some wierd belt tracking issues since the twin belts aren't 'connected' like a serp belt?  Or, do you suggest only a single belt is required?  Might be plenty?

Chris

Jim Mc

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Re: Generator Pulley source
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2006, 04:52:43 PM »
When you get into a double belt system there is a LOT more potential for friction if the groves are not machined/worn exactly the same. Then you get the belts fighting against each other and a lot of squeaking and heat. A mismatch belt set or a misalignment can lead to this problem.

That's why I recommended a "banded" V-belt.  A decent quality Browning sheave is a well-machined piece of work.  You won't have a problem with "grooves not machined the same."   

http://www.goodyearindustrialproducts.com/powertransmission/products/morebanded.html

Or, just use a single B section V belt.  If you're running just a 6 HP engine, It'll be fine.