Author Topic: Redstone engines  (Read 110908 times)

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2009, 06:01:57 AM »
Doug:

there is a ton of difference between style and substance

while the jag's had style, anyone familiar with mechanics and particularly electrics
knew full well up front what was going to fail, when and under what circumstances.

ferrari is certainly a fine example of style, but upon closer inspection it is painfully apparent that
there are lots of area's of concern.

but we aren't talking about fine cars, or a piano, or anything that has style here
certainly the listeroid/petteroid/changfa's are not going to win on the catwalks of the world
in most cases they are just plain ugly, warts and all.

when i refer to looks i refer to things down to the nuts and bolt level, well below the skin level
that might catch one's eye.
i look for things like quality of castings, quality of finish, and quality of fit to begin with
there clearly is no comparison between a lister/oid and a redstone in this regard.
then i look at the basic design, does it have full pressure lubrication, a real oil pump, xdrilled crank
what kind of brgs, what is the spacing like, sizing? and a plethora of other things.

basically i could care the less what the outside looks like, beauty truely is only skin deep unless you know what your
looking for.

some years ago while watching a special edition of antique's road show, they were at sotheby's (sp) and there was this
overstuffed chair that was to be auctioned off. it was beautifully upholstered and was a chippendale, they had an appraiser
there to look it over prior to auction.
the first thing he did was take out a penknife and cut the covering off the frame, ripped out the stuffing and all
looked like he destroyed a fine chair.
what he was looking for was the frame components to see if all was original or repaired, fake or whatever.
it sold for 275k dollars in a pile of stuffing and ripped upholstery.

so no, i could care the less what the redstone looks like, i wanna see under the stuffing and i have.
i have also seen one started for the first time, flat on a crate bottom
and it is very good out of the crate, much better than anything i have ever seen from india bar none

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2009, 06:13:10 AM »
Doug:

one parting shot if i may :)

you having an electrician background likely if faced with evaluating a service panel
might observe the panel to look like a quality unit from the outside, but likely would reserve comment until
you opened the cover to see how it was built inside, whether all the wiring was routed well, of the proper gage,
the contactors were of proper design and size, and all that.

i doubt you would be easily dooped by a flashy coverplate?

so i guess my point is, i have been around engines for many years now, have had my hand at overhauling all sorts of them
and also have seen my share of indian products. i think i have enough experience to make a determination of which engine shows the
most promise out of the crate.

this is not to say that one can't make an indian engine into a good, reliable and useful engine, because clearly you can
with luck or enough time and effort.

the redstone vs the indian engine's really is like comparing apples to oranges
the redstone is just a more advanced design to start with, and certainly appears to need far less work out of the crate.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

BruceM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2680
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2009, 03:25:11 PM »
What I like about the Listeroid most of all is the low speed, quiet running. 

I hope someone with much more skill and knowledge will experiment with the Redstone to see what the lower rpm operation situation might be.  Perhaps with a governor mod and maybe a new camshaft grind it could be slowed down to be a good replacement for a 6/1 Listeroid ?

Bob G, what do you think might be the technical  issues for for slowing down the Redstone?

Bruce



mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2009, 04:04:39 PM »
i would think probably governor work and maybe a change in timing, maybe retard it a couple degree's
and it ought to be good at 1000rpm, maybe a bit lower.

iirc the one i witnessed the first smoke on, ran just fine down to around 1200rpm out of the box
and it did run pretty stable at as low as 925rpm, but the governor was a bit slow to react at the lower rpm.

not bad, just a little soft at 925, certainly merits some work in this area, because i think it could be made to work well
in that range.

from a vibration standpoint, i didn't notice any change at the lower rpm
the sound was noticably quieter at lower rpm as would be expected.

the oil pressure seems to be sufficient, as indicated by the red button, it stay's in the site glass even at low rpm

personally i think some governor work for 900-1000rpm would be all that is needed along with maybe altering the timeing a bit
to optimize for that rpm is all that would be needed.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2009, 04:50:46 PM »
BruceM,

it could be slowed down to be a good replacement for a 6/1 Listeroid ?

It is, apparently, extrapolated as 10 Gee Gees @ 900rpm, so some way to go to be a direct replacement for a 6 horse engine.  The 'Dark' alternative is about 10 HP at 500rpm.  They have larger diameter flywheels and are a longer stroke engineand near twice the displacement.  Over-square engines have always been regarded as needing more engine speed for the same torque and not being so happy at slow speeds.  So I cannot see the Redstone as a contender for only 2.5 - 3 kw output - but I could be proved wrong.  I shall be investigating whether a JP will run happily at 400rpm......

Regards, RAB

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2009, 02:50:15 AM »
Doug:

one parting shot if i may :)

i doubt you would be easily dooped by a flashy coverplate?

The redstone vs the indian engine's really is like comparing apples to oranges
the redstone is just a more advanced design to start with, and certainly appears to need far less work out of the crate.

bob g

Well bob we have nothing to go on but a flashy cover plate so how do you know?
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2009, 03:51:05 AM »
because i was there to see the first one uncrated, filled with oil, water and fuel
and then started, ran up to full rpm, down to a low rpm of around 900rpm
and various rpm's between, as well as a 8ft 2x6 used as a brake on the flywheel to load the
crap out of it.

i have also seen the parts and service manual, as well as pictures of every last part down
to the last nut and bolt, taken by an owner who decided to do a complete take down for documentation
of every last bit and piece.

so i guess i have seen a bit more than a flashy spec plate :)

btw, it sounds awesome, runs beautifully smooth, sitting on the plywood crate bottom
without hopping around, turning circles or doing anything but sitting there running as it should

the balance is quite good in my opinion.

and it burns nice and clean as well right down to lower rpms even without a load on it
and you can load it down till it makes black smoke as well with enough leverage on the 2x6 at low rpm
but good luck at full rpm, it takes a much bigger man than I to get it loaded with a board to the point it
makes any smoke.

is it perfect? maybe not? but in my opinion it is as close as you are gonna get in its class
is there anything i would change? not that i can think of?
is there anything i would add? yes..  a good radiator and a tstat but that is no hill to climb for a climber
as would installing a full pressure lube oil filter, another minor issue

the rest is just dressing, finish to suit the application and the to the owners spec's for what he wants to
do with it.

it holds a massive amount of lube oil at about 12qts, it has a gearrotor oil pump, it has a water pump
and reverse flow cooling system (which is a plus in my opinion), it has a piston cooler, a single balance shaft
which is apparently more than adequate (and in my opinion exactly what is needed), massive crankshaft main brg
on the drive side (so it can take serious side loads), the fact it has a xdrilled crankshaft is in my opinion a huge plus
as well, no doubt that the big end brg is getting more than adequate lubrication. it is direct injected and my bet is it will
produce some impressive fuel consumption numbers that the listers only wished they could attain (again in its class)
and it don't have gib keys! (how much better does it get!)

some folks might think it is a bit expensive, but it isn't a 6/1! it is however very competitively priced with the big singles
and certainly less money than a twin in its hp range.

is it as quiet as a lister? probably not,, but
i would trade noise for quality any day of the week, noise i can attentuate (as can anyone that makes an effort)

is it difficult to work on? yes and no depending on what you wanna do and if you are at all handy
i suspect just about anyone could remove and decarbon its head in half the time it would take to remove one lister gib key.
removing a redstone flywheel requires a puller of course, and it comes in the tool kit! no special order or special made puller required
and the flywheels can be removed in 5 minutes or less (depending how far you have to reach for your tools)

its just hard for me to imagine how this engine is viewed with a jaded eye, any engine that one does not have to tear completely
apart to desand, regrind lifters, reshape rocker pads, remove the piston to clean out, work on the far end cam bushing oiling issues of the
twin, replace the iron cam idler with a bronze idler and order a offset idler bolt (then worry about a broken cam typical of the big twins)
have a big end brg that is not only ample in size, but without holes and grooves in the high pressure region.

would you like me to go on?

how about liner height being right? head gskts that don't leak? valve guides that are true and fit right?
lifter guides that are true and plumb with the cam,

and no casting voids buried in elephant snot and mopped with 1/4 inch green "it covers all the sins" paint.

how about a governor that is nicely made, finished and works as it should?

the engine is compact, in that the crankshaft is short and very stout, no overhung weight as there is in the listeroids.
the journal finish is very good and it looks to have been induction hardened and parkerized.
the fillets are of proper size and finish as well, making for a nearly indestructable crankshaft.

the countershaft brgs are roller type, which is much stronger than the changfa ball brgs, so i would expect no issues
with them for the life of the engine.

i swear to the almighty, if i had use for the hp, and if i wasn't already so heavily invested in R&D of the changfa S195
i would not only own one, but i would own two of them now! and have a couple more on order!

in conclusion i would put a changfa s195 against any listeroid or petteroid in the 12hp class, i know this because i have
dyno'd my engine at levels far above the 12hp rating with the only issue being blown head gskts (which i have rectified
with an upgrade gskt).

the changfa is subordinate to the redstone in just about all area's i can think of, anything i would like to have in the changfa
is stock on the redstone.

the redstones piston speed is right in the hunt with other slowspeed diesel engines, most notably at peak torque, even though
the rpm is higher than the 6/1.

oh yes,, lest i forget
there will be no need for a ton of concrete with the redstone, unless the owner just wants a monolithic throne to sit it on.

damn, maybe i should order one and then figure out what to do with it?

:)

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2009, 04:26:39 AM »
So bob, do you like these Redstone engines?  ;)
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Quinnf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2009, 04:44:46 AM »


Fetch, Bob.  Chase the stick!

q.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 04:52:40 AM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

hotater

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2009, 04:54:02 AM »
Well SAID!!!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2009, 04:55:25 AM »
in the order received

yes, woof, and thanks

:)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2009, 05:32:26 AM »
because i was there to see the first one uncrated, filled with oil, water and fuel
and then started, ran up to full rpm, down to a low rpm of around 900rpm
and various rpm's between, as well as a 8ft 2x6 used as a brake on the flywheel to load the
crap out of it.

bob g


Small problem here now Bob way back I posted a link to the redstone and asked you about it and you said you knew nothing about this engine and then the link shut down and you made a bunch of jokes about redstone rockets....
And now you were there to see the first redstone uncrated..... 


just to refresh things

SO...
What's the next great white hype ?
Bob tell us about this?

http://www.utterpower.com/redstone.htm


 
 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 09:46:14 PM by Doug »  Report to moderator    67.204.203.61 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken
 
 
mobile_bob
Hero Member

Posts: 2134


    Re: Spares to have on hand
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2008, 11:25:22 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doug:

i tried the link???

did you mispell it?

Redstone?  cool name!

can you give me a good link?

i have been so busy lately with the trigenerator i haven't had time to keep up with whats new
on the market.

i am liking the changfa S195 so well i can't imagine ever going to a petteroid or a listeroid, and i have both!
and they will stay in the crate to, maybe someone wants them worse than i do?

btw, i have
a 25/2 listeroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with bronze idler
a 20/2 petteroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with w/pump and radiator, and have another if you want a pair?
a 28/2 petteroid, new in the crate, preban engine, with w/pump and radiator, also have another if you want a pair?

if you want them i will make you a real deal!
i know i will likely never use any of them, getting too old and broken down to wanna hand crank an engine.

as for the redstone, i guess i can see if i can contact George and see whats up?
what do you know about it? is it anything like the blackstone?

now that would be cool!

bob g
 
 
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009, 05:35:28 AM by Doug »
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2009, 06:29:51 AM »
Doug:


i know George, but
i assure you i don't sit on the board of directors of utterpower.com, or have anything to do with
utterpower.com's website, however with just a few clicks i came up with this

http://utterpower.com/Redstone.htm


perhaps you should have capitalized the "R" in redstone?


when i responded back in november of last year it was before i had seen one in the crate so to speak
and quite frankly what difference does it make now?

unless you are making the assumption that i have not actually seen one or heard it run?

quite frankly i don't understand your hardon for this engine, how are you hurt one way or the other?

perhaps you should contact JohnF, and ask him if the redstone exists and ask him what he thinks of the new engine?

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

matt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2009, 06:53:43 AM »
Gee Doug it seems you like picking a fight!!!

I see no reason to doubt what  Bob g has reported.

Let's settle down and see what comes out of this interesting new engine find. It may be a real winner.

Matt

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2787
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2009, 12:42:40 PM »
Matt:

no big deal, i think he is just pissed off that he hasn't figured out how to import one himself
and save paying an importer their exhorbenant profit of a hundred bucks or so.

:)

doink!  ;(

i certainly don't think Doug is suggesting that i made the whole thing up? and have never seen or heard a redstone run?

or maybe i am wrong, and he is suggesting just that?

so what do ya say there Doug? you calling me a liar?

(i been called worse, but my exwife has the rights to that all sowed up)

so what is the bitch with the Redstone Doug?  What do you feel is hype?

all i reported was my take on the engine, its design, my observations on how it started, ran, and operated under a load, its
build quality, attention to detail, fit and finish.

i don't think i stated that it was a rolex, bentley, stadivarious, steinway or even
a 100k hour engine like the wc andree engine (ya right!)

i just called it like i saw it, nothing more, nothing less.

btw,, what ever happened to the petteroid project? did you ever get it back together, running, mated to the genhead, and producing
something useful? i would think you of all people after reading your horror stories related to that petteriod would be all over a better quality engine?

are you pissed off at me because i reported the petteroids as being "all that and a bag of chips"?? and did you go out and import one
based on some report i made way back when? i really don't remember having said anything much about the petteroids one way or another, but i am sure you have me catalogued away in your data base and can produce where i might have hyped a petteroid?

but i doubt it!

btw,, i do think the petteroids are better engine's than the listeroids when it comes to the twins, but that is another story :)

so what gives, why so negative toward the Redstone?

bob g
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info