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Author Topic: Engine temps from a newbie  (Read 9283 times)

NoSpark

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Engine temps from a newbie
« on: December 07, 2008, 07:13:11 PM »
This morning I gave the roid a 20 min low-watt warm up, then put the biggest load on it yet, 2700w, a room heater and an old toaster oven(man, I should have cooked something in it, I'm starved :D)

These are temps after 45 minutes loaded to 2700 watts, ST5  in 120v mode, temps now stable.  No smoke.
Room temp 32f - 0c, Radiator vertical size 34"h x 1.5"thick - 863mm x 38mm, 195f - 90c thermostat, 25% antifreeze, non pressurized, radiator core 75% covered on top both sides.

Fuel: about 15% WMO, ATF and diesel with a splash of Power Service.

F and C may differ a little because I have to change from one to the other and try to reshoot the same spot. :P

Engine outlet  219f - 108c
Top of cylinder head by injector 229f - 112c
Bottom of cylinder by inlet 167f - 75c
Inlet of radiator 200f - 95c
Outlet of radiator 170f - 78c
Exhaust before expansion tank 430f - 224c
Exhaust after expansion tank 295f - 147c (wow!, what a drop)
Oil filter 80f - 27c
Top of ST5 89f - 32c

Pulled radiator covers off at an hour and temps stayed stable for another 20 min(no fan) until engine just stopped all of a sudden.
Doh!! Out of fuel!!

Other observations:
Leaks fluids like an old Harley Davidson, O.K. maybe not that bad, just a couple of small leaks to fix.
ST volt gauge finally quit completely. At least I still have that little light :D. Plan on removing box anyway.
Tried COV in and out, didn't notice change in sound or rpm. Left it screwed in.
Very little diesel knock once warmed up. Sounds great!  8)
I'm happy so far. Now I need to get this thing hooked up to power the house before some big ice storm.

Think I'm going to pull the oil plug today and put in 20w non synthetic till its broke in a lot more. I now have a mix of 30w and 15w40, pretty thick cold.
Anand Powerline 6/1 ST5

Stan

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2008, 07:33:30 PM »
I believe you should leave your COV out.  The physics is as follows.  "In" equals higher compression ratio.  "Out" equals lower compression ratio.  "In" (higher) results in easier starting and for loads up to 1/3 of total is ok.  Once you get beyond 1.3 total load, the higher compression puts more stress on the guts (technical term, sorry).  That's why Dursley recommends in all their CS engines to back the COV "out" once you load her down.

You can see this for yourself if you search out the "cut away" diagram of the lister head.  It plainly shows the "extra" little cave (sorry, more technical terms) that is opened up when you back out the COV valve, resulting in lower compression.  How much I don't know.  I'll leave the math to all the math people.  I did math for 30 years and swore I'd never do it again after I retired.
Stan

SteveU.

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2008, 07:59:23 PM »
NoSpark

Real good information you've posted.

I think you need to bring your upper outlet temperature down to no more than 210F (98C) on this non pessurized system to prevent steampocketing at the hot spot areas inside the head casting.
Problem is: steam won't cool the casting properly. The thermal expansion differiential between the in coolant contact areas and the not in contact areas  is what causes casting cracking.
If you are at high alltitude you'd have to lower the running temp a bit more.
If pressurized you'd be safe at these temperatures.
But I don't yet know just what pressure the cylinder sleeve O-ring will take.
I've asked three times on diferent threads with no responces.

So, since the thermostat is already wide open you need to remove heat from the radiator.
Small fan time.

Looks real good otherwise. Congradulations.
SteveU.

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oliver90owner

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 08:08:08 PM »
Radiator vertical size 34"h x 1.5"thick

Picky, but what is the other dimension?  Assuming 3 rows of tubes?

As Stan says, COV out when on more than 1/3 load, unless crank is drilled for pressure oil feed?  Then it might depend on pressure attained/maintained.

Remember this thread may be read by a newbie in a few months time and their mileage may vary.

BTW what 'oid is it - power and speed rating, IDI or DI,etc.  We know what a Lister CS6/1 is but 'oids can be just about anything.

Apart from that it looks pretty normal.  Any smoke?

The expansion tank looks as though it might be radiating about a kW or so.  Can't tell from your figures, and don't know it's size or shape.  Seems about in the right ball park.

Regards, RAB

ronmar

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2008, 08:16:01 PM »
Tell us some more about your radiator?  I got the 34" high, and 1.5" thick part, but how wide is it?  Are you using a fan?  Some pics of your setup would be great.  

With a 90C/194F thermostat in place, you should be seeing near 90C/194F on that outlet pipe and at the radiator inlet.  If you are not getting this, either your thermosiphon configuration is not allowing enough flow thru the system, or you are not providing enough cooling on the down side of your thermosiphon loop.  A low temp difference between engine and radiator also means a slower thermosiphon flow.  The 170F at the radiator outlet also sounds high to me.  Here is where a picture could really help out, as thermosiphon is powered by heat difference, what is the cause?  Not enough cooling causing low flow, or not enough flow inhibiting the heat transfer and overall cooling.

With a 194F thermostat, I wouldn't expect to ever see more than 200F on the outlet pipe if the system is flowing and transfering heat properly.  I mean, that is the point of the thermostat afterall, to regulate and maintain a stable engine temperature.  Ideally in operation, if the radiator is matched properly to the engine, the thermostat is never closed, and never wide open, but is somewhere in it's mid range.  It opens or closes slightly from this mid point to regulate flow in response to engine load/heat output, or changes in the airflow or air temperature thru the radiator.  At 216F on the outlet, your thermostat is wide open, but the flows and temps are not removing the BTU's as fast as they are being produced.  Do you have a car with a temperature gauge?  What does the temp needle do during a drive?  It should climb to a point(thermostat temp) and stay there for the entire drive.  That is what the listeroid should do with a thermostat and properly setup cooling system.

With water boiling at 212F, I would think 216F will be inducing some boiling, which is not good.      
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

oliver90owner

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2008, 08:24:51 PM »
Fellows,

Those temps are IR?  Probably all wrong.

Probably not boiling as it is 25% ethylene glycol, but, as Ron says, should not be much over 90oC exiting engine.

Perhaps the radiator is 1.5" wide. :)

Regards, RAB

NoSpark

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 12:56:25 AM »
Before I begin the radiator is 34"x18"x1.5" single tube. If you read my post the radiator core 75% covered, this was to get the system heated up faster and to keep the temps from swinging 30 to 40 degrees F for an hour as the thermostat opened and 40f coolant came in. The temp had climbed to 220f - 108c while I got a pen and pad and was shooting and taking notes. I then removed the covers on the radiator and the temps started to come down before it ran out of fuel. No problem! The IR temp matches the gauge perfectly. I do plan on installing a fan. The COV is a subject for another topic probably, but I've read a few times that these 6/1 roids are all fixed compression ratio, some have COVs and some don't, so screwing the COV out would put the ratio lower than what it would normally supposed to run with, that something I have to look into more. Pics will be posted in the near future.
Anand Powerline 6/1 ST5

Stan

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 01:50:12 AM »
Installing a COV valve is undoubtedly an expensive addition so I can't see why the Indians would do it on a head that it wouldn't make any difference to??  ???  The only way I know of to figure out the compression ratio is to calculate the volume of the head, not an easy thing to do on something that irregular.  Maybe if you took it off and tried to fill it with oil, then measured it but you wouldn't be sure you had the oil into every little chamber of the "cave".  Haven't tried it myself on a Lister head so YMMV.
Stan

ronmar

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 04:24:31 AM »
34" X 18" X 1.5" is enough radiator, and then some for a 6/1.  The temp swings without a cover on tell me that it is most likley oversized.  Auto radiators don't radiate especially well without some kind of airflow, either a fan or angled to produce some chimney effect and allow the warm air to rise thru the fins.  If yours heat cycles under the same 2700W warmup load conditions without covers, I think a much smaller radiator with a thermostatically controlled fan would be in order.  The smaller radiator would also have the advantage of having less water to get to operating temp initially, so warmups would be a more rapid and smooth affair.  A smaller radiator might however have to be mounted hgher to maintain an adequate thermosiphon flow with the lower liquid mass in the smaller radiator...   
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

oliver90owner

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 07:23:56 AM »
90c thermostat,
The temp had climbed to 220f - 108
The IR temp matches the gauge perfectly

Well, something is sure darned wrong!! :)  If the t-stat allows running 20oChigher than it's rating. ???

What guage?  Thermistor or heat bulb and bellows?. Tried mercury in glass? No, never mind, close enough.

Regards, RAB

NoSpark

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 12:11:59 AM »
I pulled the cooling system apart last night because of a couple of leaks, possibly not enough teflon tape, I was getting low. I built a stand for my radiator(s) and I needed to get the radiator off to paint it anyway. I have another radiator that's probably half the thickness and 3/4 the length but the same width, that I'll put on instead. What I was trying to accomplish with the covers is to get a smaller radiator without changing it, which it did for the most part, but it was still a lot of coolant to heat up, about 3 gallons, it did not heat cycle once warmed up. The big radiator has two heat exchangers built into it so imagine the possibilities.

RAB, I have a 3" gauge in a T after the thermostat housing, O.K., if that gauge reads 200f I will get 200f on my IR gun on the T that the gauge is in Get It! Seems pretty accurate to me!
If I would have pulled the covers off the radiator sooner the engine would not have gotten that hot! I plan to install a thermostatically controlled fan.
Anand Powerline 6/1 ST5


Jim Mc

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 01:53:44 AM »
... I do plan on installing a fan....

That is the problem.  Based on your original temperature readings, you need more air flowing through the radiator.



oliver90owner

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 07:28:29 AM »
3" gauge in a T after the thermostat housing, O.K

Has that 3" guage - whatever that is - been checked for calibration?

When it has, and as been confirmed as correct, I will believe it.  Until then a waste of space, as far as I am concerned, for accuracy.

RAB

Sfene

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Re: Engine temps from a newbie
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 02:10:09 PM »
Before you get yourself a smaller radiator, remember the ambient now is roughly freezing, in the summer you may have need for more cooling area. Seems your best bet is a Taco pump tied to a temp sensor, pump runs intermitently and your thermostat will smooth out any problems w/ overcooling. Fans are fine but if things get really hot circulating coolant will help more than air circulation. Complexitywise the wiring is the same as a fan.
IMHO
Sfene