Use of Plastigauge

[Eadie McCreadie]

I've got quite a collection of the top rings...

I have to buy a complete set each time, which is £30 a shot...   

Gets you down.

[oliver90owner]

£30 a shot...

Man that is thiefery!  get yourself a ring compressing tool and a ring expander.  One set of rings should about pay for both9or have prices gone up that much?).  I have a small one and a large one (small does most motorcycle /car engines, big does tractors to I'm not sure how big) so I don't need to put the piston in from underneath.  Draper tools and most of the more comprehensive tool shops/sites will sell them. Most of my tools were bought cheap, often second hand, when I wasn't needing them.

The Lister was designed when these tools were non existent to the general user and so engines were easily dismantled and rebuilt with the barest of technology.  No reason to follow that path if you don't want to nowadays ; ring compressors and expanders simply make life so much easier if you have them around, as do torque wrenches, micrometers and dial guages etc.

You don't need them but they do help.

Regards, RAB

[Eadie McCreadie]

I'd never used a ring compressor until this week.

You'll all probably laugh at me for this, but I'll say it anyway - how else can I learn?

I put the ring compressor around the piston and the rings compressed nicely.  It only just compressed all the rings.

Then I began to put the cylinder over the piston to the point where you obviously have to release the compressor to allow the piston to pass up into the cylinder, and therefore the compressor must travel downwards.

All well and good, but there comes the point where the compressor gets fouled on top of the crankcase and needs to come off.  But of course, it cannot come off because the steel bands go all the way around the conrod, and there is nowhere to go!

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

After disentangling the contraption, I got on with smashing the oil control ring and then slammed the door shut on the bloody thing and had a good cry into my beer.

Ok, so the ring compressor, I guess, is only good for putting on the rings when you are putting the piston into the top of the cylinder, and this allows you to remove the compressor upwards... but remember my conrod was connected at the big end...

You get the picture?

Tim

Oh, and if anyone knows where in the uk I can get piston rings cheaper than £30 I'd love to know.  Thanks.

[xyzer]

Tim,
How come you don't put the piston in rod first from the top?
Dave

[Eadie McCreadie]

You mean put the cylinder on first, then lower the piston into that?

I was doing it the other way as I thought it would be easier to get the rings in the bore as it's tapered.

I think you may have a point...

[MacGyver]

Tim,
How come you don't put the piston in rod first from the top?
Dave

On my 6/1 that won't work. The fat end of the rod is too big to go through the cylinder.

[oliver90owner]

Yep, simplicity on a proper lister.  The rod will go down the bore.  Like all car engines (well almost all) ring clamp around the piston, slide piston down with help from a hammer handle (wooden) leaving the copmpreesor on top of the block and job is done.  A single size clamp can be made for say 4 1/2 inch piston but the commercial ones are the expanding type for a range of piston sizes. 

As several have mentioned elsewhere, protect the conrod bolt threads so they can not 'ding' the crank, if the rod gets skewed, and torque it up from below.  Much less hassle, no interferernce with the gaskets under the cylinder block, much less lifting effort.  All ways around, just plain easier and simpler.

Ring expanders do the other job of enlarging the ring in a controlled manner for slipping over the piston and easily into the right groove, or for easy removal.

Just looked on Draper Tools site - cost 8-12 quid for an expander and 4.30 for the pliers  (+ shipping).

You have to remember that these engines were derived from stationary engines with cylinder and combustion chamber cast in one piece (no separate cylinder head), so piston had to go in from the bottom and assembly methods were limited.  It was a common, well known method and was carried over into the diesel engine (from the small petrol side valve engines) 'cos that was the way it was done and was simple enough with a minimum of tools required (and nothing specialised in any way). Spanners, hammer and screwdriver were probably all the tools needed/used for most maintenance. Oh, and a scaper tool for scraping in the bearings.

Regards, RAB

[xyzer]

Mac,
One of mine would not but a belt sander on the corner of the rod bolt bosses fixed that. Might have lost .0034 oz to the balance but It would not be noticed. Like RAB said they were originaly setup that way except we get crappy casting work with lots of flashing compared to the old days. It is much easier to pull the piston out the top leaving the cylinder in place not ripping your shims up just to give it a ring job.
Dave

[Eadie McCreadie]

Tim,
How come you don't put the piston in rod first from the top?
Dave

On my 6/1 that won't work. The fat end of the rod is too big to go through the cylinder.

Right, progress is very slow, however, I have too found out that the big end won't fit into the cylinder bore.

So is it permissible to shave off a bit of the metal from the outside of the big end to make it fit down?  I think you'd need to lose about a millimeter off each side.

Or alternatively, to avoid the problem of smashing the rings, put the piston in the bore from below, compressing the rings, then lowering the cylinder AND piston-conrod onto the studs?

Flippin' 'eck that's gonna be heavy...

[BruceM]

Neither of my two conrods will fit down through the cylinder sleeve, so I have to put the piston in the cylinder, then lower the whole assembly in place.  It is a two person job, and not fun. 

Bruce M

[xyzer]

Evidently some do some don't! Another Indian inconsistancy.....originals did....I would fix it so it would if it were mine unless someone else has a good reason why not.......Obviously you don't want to weaken the rod. Mine just needed the outer edges or the rod casting deburred.....
Dave

[oliver90owner]

Eadie,

I think you'd need to lose about a millimeter off each side.

By that, I presume you mean a mm (or less) from each corner?  Do it.  Get, make or buy a ring compressor tool and do it easily.  Cost is minimal and you have the tool on hand forever........

Yes, you can put the piston in the bottom of the up-turned cylinder and then lift the whole assembly onto the crankcase.  Use blocks, if you are doing it manually,to stop it dropping all the way down and pinching fingers or dinging the crank.  Easy enough if you are strong enough but not recommended (HSE lifting limits these days!!).

I remember when I used to lift my Ford Cortina engines in and out on my own - without a hoist - but I would not (be able to) do it that way now.

Regarding the con rod not going through the bore.  ALL proper lister 5/1 onwards were like that.  The 3/1 was not a big enough bore, so had to be fitted from the bottom of the cylinder.  These 'oids!!!!Grrrr.

By the way, Aldi had an electric hoist for about 30-40 quid earlier in the year.  Only 125 kg rating (250kg using the snatch block) so with a suitable sky hook would lift all parts in a controlled manner, just not the whole engine in one lump!

Regards, RAB

[Eadie McCreadie]

Thanks RAB.

I thought that by posting about removing metal from the conrod would have invited scorn - surely messing with such an important part could be dodgy?  Anyway,
I think it's worth it.

Cheers,

Tim

[oliver90owner]

removing metal from the conrod would have invited scorn

Those Indian con rods are as rough as they come. You are only tidying them up a bit.

If you were going to improve the engine output and run it at 15000 ropm and have triple turbos on it the rods would be shaved down to minimum weight and still be strong enough to last for one go kart race, or whatever.   OK just joking . 

You will only be rounding off the corners so that, if anything, will mean there is less chance of a crack propagating from that previously sharp edge.  Just take about the same from each corner and the job will be done.  Remember it is the con rod bolts that are taking a lot of the strain in that area and that at the point of combustion there is no load at all on the bolts or on the bottom half of the rod - it is all on the top half of the bearing into the crank.  They are more important further round the cycle!

Thoeretically, if you take the outside skin off, there could be warpage in the casting (final machining should be done after those sort of operations).  In practice this will not affect anything at all in this engine.

Regards, RAB

[Tom]

On the other hand, putting a nice radius the corners of the rod cap may prevent stress fractures. I don't think anyone would remove enough material to unbalance their roid.