Author Topic: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s  (Read 7274 times)

oliver90owner

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Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« on: November 16, 2008, 05:14:18 PM »
It might be interesting to know or hear of the normal mode of failure for the Lister CSs, or even the less common failure.

They were well known for longevity but do you know of any that failed in service?  I mean fairly catastrophically, not just air in the injector line.

OK, OK, I know the norm was 'just plain wore out' or as Guy Fawkes (in another thread) put it, 'wilful neglect'.

We know the 'oids fail on numerous counts, any excuse for a rebuild, but what was the old engines' achilles heel?  Did it have one?

Regards, RAB

compig

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 06:04:39 PM »
Although falling under the neglect catagory , frost cracking and running out of oil have to be on the list !!!  Then I'd put a stake on valve gear related issues.
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oliver90owner

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 08:41:31 PM »
compig,

 I'm a stickler for grammar.  Sometimes get it wrong - but what has frost cracking got to do with running out of oil? :) :)

OK they both are possible candidates but the former is probably operator mishap.  Yes, they were around when antifreeze wasn't the norm.  They all came with a three way draincock so the block could be drained but that probably was a problem later when they were finally discarded as a regular prime mover.

Running out of oil should be a no-no.  The normal tank doesn't hold that much fuel to allow enough time for the engine to use all it's reserve - unless badly worn out or operator error.

What valve gear related issues are you relating? Most still seemed to run with the rocker shaft well worn.  Are you meaning inside the engine?

Apart from best part of 50 years ago when I took little notice of a stationary engine (common as muck), my Lister CS experience has been in the last 5 years.  I wasn't expecting many to have experience of regular failures, but I was hoping there might be a few who remember these engines working for their keep, before being just part of the exhibiton scene at country rallies, and see if there was an achilles heel.

Or any stories of actually how good they were at not breaking down?

Regards, RAB

compig

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 09:21:42 PM »
Did I say frost cracking CAUSED by running out of oil ???  No , I don't think so.  Valve gear is anything related to valve gear , from cam up. Use your imagination. Running out of oil wouldn't be so unusual , long periods of unattended running combined with operator negligence and there you have it.
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
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lendusaquid

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 09:32:33 PM »
Being a total smeghead and having the gears one cog out nearly did it for my engine.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 11:33:30 PM »
Although falling under the neglect catagory , frost cracking and running out of oil have to be on the list !!!  Then I'd put a stake on valve gear related issues.

Not really.

The CS was never a continuous duty engine, standalone or start-o-matic, and it wasn't built for continuous duty, however.....

Directly I can tell you about anything from one or two CS's at a time to at one point just over 50 of them, indirectly the highest number has to be old peter who is long dead now, but who was responsible for over 500 units in iran.

They didn't actually have a failure mode, provided they were routinely inspected and serviced as required, where do you think the 100k hours plus stories come from.

With wilful neglect I've seen actual sweet examples go to scrap in a week, on the other hand I've also seen CS's run hundreds of hours with cracks right across the piston, with lube oil that was at least 50% rainwater and with the slimy consistency to make webs between your fingers, injectors that basically didn't atomise any better than my shower, you name it.

I know for a fact that we had one 6/1 in particular that used to run for 9 days solid, then stop for a maximum of 3 hours, and a minimum of 1 hour, before going again. I know that because it was running a brine pump and it was plumbed into a 45 gallon drum (of diesel), when it emptied it the drum was changed, and the guy doing the rounds did them every 3 hours. That engine was clocking up over 8.500 hours a year, and apart from routine service, plus routine head and injector service every 2.500 hours, nothing ever went wrong with it.

My s-o-m stands out in the garden, it isn't covered in any way, sometimes it doesn't run for 3 or more months, but it never fails to start and instantly settle down to a sweet steam engine beat, only starts to thump if you out some load on it.

My stock of lister spares for it, and the old lister D, is precisely zero. Just not needed.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
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Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

compig

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 12:21:07 AM »
Good stuff Fawkes , but treat that SOM with respect and get it undercover !!!  ;D
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
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Stan

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 03:18:58 AM »
Does a 12/2 sitting out in a field without the heads on it for 5 years in a climate that gets down to -25C in winter and up to +30C in summer count as neglect?
Stan

oliver90owner

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 06:05:27 AM »
GF

My stock of lister spares for it, and the old lister D, is precisely zero. Just not needed.

I agree with you there.  Just about sums up the 500USD 'must have' spares list on the other thread.

Stan,

Was it covered at all?  A wonder thee crankcase did not fill with water and get frost damaged!!

I would probably put that down as abandonment, not neglect.  Sounds like someone had just given up on it.  Lucky you came along and proved otherwise?

REgards, RAB

Combustor

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 10:24:43 AM »
           In yhe 1950's and '60's Australia's Postmaster General's Dept. ran many post offices and phone exchanges in remote outback locations and powered by 6/1 or 8/1
SOM plants. Most staff were city recruits who had never seen an engine, so maintenance was a problem and most failures were due to low cooling water, or use of saline
or mineralised water. Lister and the PMG Dept. consulted and came up with their "outback generator" which was a 7.5 hp VA engine (an aircooled adaptation of an 8/1)
with a 4.1 kw SOM generator on a heavy steel skidbase which carried an extended oil sump holding an extra 8 or 9 litres of oil. The engine oil pump drew from the extra
sump and oil was returned to it via a coupling replacing the normal drain plug.The engines then ran for 8 weeks (over 1300 hours) un-attended till the service crew called
to service it and refill the bulk fuel tank.On this regime they were virtually 100% reliable, When finally alternators were due for brushes and bearings, the complete unit
could be skidded out and exchanged. I own a VA powered SOM unit, not one of PMG's skidbase sets. Not many other VA units were sold as they were expensive when
compared with the smaller aircooled direct coupled units which Lister were then introducing. Many outback stations (ranches) kept old CS models in service till spares finally
disappeared, rather than buying some "new-fangled contraption",and I still can't fault their reasoning!   Regards,  Combustor.
Toys include- Lister CS 8/1, Lister VA SOM plant and some Aussie engines.
   "Old iron in the Outback" Kimberley, West Australia.

compig

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 01:27:23 PM »
Superb historical context there Combustor !!!
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rleonard

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Re: Modes of failure of CS 6/1s and 12/2s
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 01:56:43 PM »
On a 16-2 I rebuilt, the engine had a lot of time and was ready for an overhaul.  What finally pulled it out of service was a failure of the #2 injection pump lifter.  The locknut holding the anti rotation bolt vibrated off.  The bolt unscrewed out allowing the cam follower to skid instead of roll on the cam. 

I documented this in an earlier post with pictures.

Bob
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