Author Topic: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered  (Read 73790 times)

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2786
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2008, 07:06:46 AM »
if you can provide a flammable gas from your gasifier and get it into the intake stream
the diesel injection system and listeroid governor will do the rest up to a point.

as you start admitting another gaseous fuel you should see the fuel rack moving toward the
idle position while the engine is pulling a load, more gas will cause the engine to try and speed up
and the governor will taper back the diesel injected to control the rpm.

some engines can handle a fair percentage of gas before missfiring occurs, there needs to be some pilot fuel
injected to initiate the start of combustion.

what that percentage is on a particular engine, under a specific load, and with a specific quality of gas
will determine what the offset will be.

i am thinking that a IDI listeriod might reach as high a 70-80% woodgas before it starts to missfire, maybe a bit
more, maybe a bit less.

don't expect to get the same power on woodgas, woodgas does not have the same btu rating of diesel and
it displaces oxygen in the intake air, and

to optimise for woodgas will require adjustment of the timing to get max benefit, but
that is likely outside the ability of most diy'ers... me included :)

probably too much effort to get variable timing for the time, effort and dollars spent.

personally i would settle for a hit in efficiency just to have reliable power at any level of efficiency
as long as i could get maybe 2 of the 3 kwatts typical of a listeroid.

heck i might even settle for 1.5 kwatt if it worked out to be easily attained and reliable.

as the old adage states
"you get 90% of the result with 10% of the effort,and
conversely the last 10% will require 90% of the effort"

so maybe it follows that one could expect
1/2 the result with 1/2 the effort?

maybe that is enough result for most folks?

good enough for the girls i run with  :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 11:14:01 AM »
Hello Marcus and BobG.,

I agree with most of what you've pointed out Bob. Most people miss the oxygen displacement that occures with a gasious fuel versus a liquid fuel in an IC engine, plus all the extra nitrogen comming thru the gasifier along with the  gasious fuel stream. That is why I went with a larger displacement 12/1 versus the more practical 6/1. I believe I can still get 6hp for a 3kw useable electrical output.

Marcus if you go back and review Carb23s recent posts where he sucsessfuly converted a 6/1 Listeriod to methane he has info that shows what BobG. was explaining about the diesel govenor automatically controlling the diesel fuel side. This confrims what Blacksea7 (the former Lister engineer) has said previously on this forum about substitution rates and the diesel govenor controlling the diesel fueling.

June 2009 Edit: on a 6/1 Listeriod trying this method Jim Mason has reported, "duel fueling is (too) touchy". He also says now, "duel fueling (Listeriods and ChangFa's) scenarios are very unsatisfing" . And has stated he will convert these engine and try developing them as single fuel woodgas only. S.U.

Marcus the storage of producer/wood gas came up on Bioenergy lists Forum recently and the consensus seemed to be NO it was not practical to store wood gas due to the carbon monoxide  component degrading seals and wanting to strip oxygen molocules out of any source to convert to more stable but unburnable CO2. Also the hydrogen componet is a slippery devil hard to keep sealed in and especially good at sqeezing into most metals at the molecular level causing enbrittlement. This has been one of the chief holdbacks on the hydrgen powered car development. That plus it only has 1/4 the energy of methane, 1/5th the energy propane and will not liquify under any practical temperature/pressure so travel range really sucks.

Marcus don't worry too much about this gasifer being too big for a 6/1. You can always use slip in tubes in the reduction cone to decrease capacity.
June 2009 Edit: this tube reduction idea when tried by many others consistently failed due to fuel /charcoal flow blockages. On chunked, chipped woody fuels a minimum 3" reduction restriction in an Inbert style hearth is proving to be the smallest practical.

 I also have come to believe if anyone is going to be able to design one of these small engine gasifiers to work on machine chipped wood it will be Jim Mason.

Marcus one of the best mechanics I ever known was the orthopedic surgeon who put me back togather a couple of times. Plus it really does help to know some chemistry to do this stuff.
There are lots of expeirenced true offgridders on this forum to quiz. For starters: Hotater, Diesel Guy, and Tom.

SteveU.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 06:01:24 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2008, 05:04:02 PM »
Thank you SteveU and BobG for your insightful replies. 

Doh!  For the moment, I forgot about the oxygen displacement, too.   So how do you ever get greater than about 50% woodgas mix?   When you talk about 80% woodgas, how is that possible?   It would seem the oxygen concentration would be too low to have combustion.  SteveU: are you making or buying a butterfly valve from somewhere for the air-gas mixing?

BobG:  50% efficiency would be adequate, so the decreased BTU's are not a big problem.   I have the regular ST head setup and will send the juice to an Outback inverter which has an AC-input charging circuit.   It should compensate and use whatever amperage it gets sent for charging the batteries.   Taking AC from a regular ST head was easier than using a very large alternator w/ high-amperage lower-voltage DC output and running it to a separate charge controller.   In short, the lower BTU's don't matter, because the woodgas is free.

I was a chemistry minor in college, but that knowledge slips away quickly when not used.   What you mention about woodgas storage makes perfect sense, though.   About conversion to CO2, and O2 causing enbrittlement.

(Yes, I too have known quite a few ortho docs who are quite good auto mechanics.   The rest of us sometimes joke around about how they oftentimes are good people-mechanics, but forgot about the rest of medicine's pathophysiology, pharmacology, etc.)  ;D

Marcus
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2008, 04:21:39 AM »
Hello Marcus  this is my fourth attempt to post you in two days. It gets shorter each time.

The %s we've been talking about are gasious fuel replacing diesel NOT air fuel ratios. It will always take some diesel to start the ignition process. I want mine to remain duel fuel capable so spark ignition conversion is out.
Since these are fixed speed engines it will not be nesasary to have a air/fuelgas mixing butterfly.
Two ways I see to do the gasious fuel control:
 
1) Create engine vacumn and suck it in.
Pipe the gasious fuel into the intake no farther than 12" from the intake valve. Control this fuel volume with a metal gate valve. Above where the gasious fuel comes in have a metal quarter turn ball valve. These are being used by others as emergency engine air stop valves. this valve partially opend Will create the manifold vacumn. Before the fuel gate valve have threeway metal ball. This will have an All Closed, Gas to Engine, Gas to Flare positions. Once best positions are determined mechnical stops can be set for repeatability. Can be all manual. Or automated. Would result in some power loss due to throttling the air in like a gasoline engine.

June 2009 Edit: as noted in reply #20, Jim Mason tried this method found it , "(too) touchy" and " unsatisfing". No further explainations. Lack of power? Lack of speed/load response? Or just a pain dealing with two separate fuel supply and delivery systems. I did ask. But could get no further explainations. S.U.

2) Use the gasifier blower motor running all the time to blow the gasious fuel into the intake manifold.
All the same except the upstream air valve would always be left completly open.
Again manual operation or automated. Does create a safty hazard in the engine shed with the pressurized 20% carbon monoxide in the gasious fuel.

Pro and cons to each method.

I'd posted more details before  with references but maybe next time now.
OK you guys blast away at these ideas!!

SteveU.

Damn it finally worked.
OK this is from an old 1972 welding manual:
"This hydrogen known as atomic hydrogen (H single atom) is deposited freely in the weld. For awhile it remains free and is able to travel throughout the weld (metal). When two atoms of hyrogen meet in a void in the weld ( all metals are porous especially castings) they form molecular hydogen (H2). As more and more molecular hydrogen builds up in these tiny spaces the gas builds up pressure. The pressure can reach the tensile strength of the steel, and of course. . . cracks form." Ah Ha! So thats what the pretty blue flames in my new hot  burning wood stoves has been doing to the cast iron at 2-3000 hours. Its not just simple expected carbonization.
 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 06:16:39 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 12:53:48 PM »
Hello All,

Take a look at this Youtube vidio of a NZ high schoolers "Futures Fuel Project"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gtyx-gbgoU

This was highlighted  on the Gasifacation Lists by site sponsor Tom Miles. The builders name is Jake Martin. He designed and built this under the guidance of gasifacation scientist/developer Doug Williams. It helps to have direct assistance from one of the best.
I need to go "borrow" some band width so I can hear and see at full clarity before I can fully comment on the vidio. The effort looks to be very, very good. Shows fuel conversion through its various stages; the best layout of Doug Williams ideas on post gasifier gas cleaning/cooling/filtering that I've seem so far. Not a lot of engine time yet. But does show that Jake Martin is working toward overdriving a syncronous motor to generate AC. I think. I'll have to take the neighbor a dozen eggs and see this again in real time with the audio component.

Enjoy
SteveU.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 06:21:24 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2008, 05:45:28 AM »
Hello Marcus
Sounds like you will definatly have your gasifier up and working before me.
Did Jim Mason supply documentation/operational guidelines with your kit??

Some thoughts:
You really don't want to run tarry gas through your engine. Have you seen pictures of what clean blue almost clear flare gas flames looklike? Any red/orange is bad gas for an engine.

No one has commented on my proposed gas into engine control ideas.
We will probably be on our own on this.

Johnathan Spreadbough recommended    www.murrayequipment.com/      for stainless tubing.
On their web site they show the quarter turn ball, gate and butterfly valves. The ball and butterfly valves must be easy turning becouse they list electric and pheumatic actuators for them.

In Oregon there is a company called Reliable Steam Engine they show mechanical automation controls for their steam boilers and engines. They could be a source for ideas and valves.
www.pioneertelephonecoop.com/~carlich/RSE/RSEschematics.html
ph 541-528-3380

Let me know how I can help out.

SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2008, 02:41:34 AM »
Here are some pictured gasifier fueled gen sets posted on the gasifiers.bioenergylists.org web site by Max Gasman back in 2007?

The pictures were at a Finnish Ecology meet. The Finns obviously like stainless steel too.

At: http://www.ekoautoilijat.fi/index.htm
Then open up "Kuvagalleria" (photogallery). You can enlarge the thumnail shots shown. There is pictured a single cylinder/big flywheel, 6cly and Chev V8 generator sets.

And NO I do not read/speak Finnish.

Enjoy
SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2008, 03:51:43 AM »
Notice the nice sized wood chips/blocks they were making.  8)  If only my chipper did that! 
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2008, 04:07:06 AM »
The electric actuated valves at murrayequipment.com were interesting, but did you look at the price?!
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2008, 07:42:46 AM »
Here you can see how far along I've come in putting the beast together.   The gasifier itself is now in one piece.   After putting the stainless steel heat exchanger coils on, I put the gasifier core in the outer shell and sealed it w/ a clay based gasket material (weather-stripping that Jim Mason sent).   For the pipe joint threads I used Antiseize.   Is that adequate?   Will it hold up to the heat?   Now I just have to put together the packed bed filter, cyclone, and fan.   Then it's ready to try out.   Sorry, the fan and rest of the pieces are behind the hopper in the pic.   Maybe I'll get a few more pics tomorrow.

Link:  http://docbryner.homelinux.com/~marcus/4images/details.php?image_id=7071

No, Jim didn't include any documentation or operational guidelines.   But his website has plenty of pics, and it's relatively easy to put together.   We were going to talk on the phone again when we both had time, but it hasn't happened yet.   Just e-mails.    Hope you get your's soon.    I'm eager to hear how someone else fares....

Marcus
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2008, 09:39:09 PM »
Hello all
Take a look at this this web site listed on the gasifier forum:
www.DynaMotive.com

A private company has developed and patented a process to turn biomass pyrolization gases into a liquid fuel product. They call it "BioOil"
Looks like a large scale industrial process like the Fisher-Tropser (sp) coal into synthetic liquid fuels.
BioOil would be transportable and storable. And once burnt could be said to be turning wood into elctricity.

Interesting developement.

SteveU.
 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 06:23:49 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 11:42:14 PM »
SteveU.,

Very interesting and promising.  Looks like the BTU value of their fuel is quite a bit less than fossils fuels, quite a bit less than expected, given we are hoping for 10-30% less HP w/ wood-gas than diesel.   (Correct me if I'm wrong?)  Also, it doesn't store for more than a few months.   Hmm.   But, things like this will hopefully stimulate more producer gas R&D.

Marcus
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 06:13:33 PM »
Hello Marcus

Yes their BioOil product has less energy and a shorter storage life than current petro fuels. Petro fuels displaced wood, coal, vegioils and even elctricity for these and "other" reasons a hundred years ago. Even though you and I and others can grow more trees and make stationary power plants wood fueled, a liquid fuel is OPINION! a much better as a tranportation fuel.

Woodland forests becouse of their three dementionality are considered the most effiecient solar energy desifiers and converters on the planet. The land mass of our planet was recently at least 30% covered by forests. It can be again. Forests are the untimate renewable no-till crop. A viable way to use this resource as a tranportation fuel is really exciting. Add in the wind, direct solar, tidal, to the current hydro and I think we can now see a good, reasonable future for our children and grandchilren.

In the meantime we do the best we can we what we have today.

SteveU.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 06:25:11 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2008, 07:57:52 PM »
Hello All

I just read an interesting post by Dr Tomas Reed on the Gassification Lists forum. Quote:

"Fischer Tropsch diesel has been around since the 1930s. South Africa currently gets 50% of its liquid fuel from coal using this process.
The Community Power Corporation (www.gocpc.com) has developed a simplified gasifier of diesel from producer (not synthesis) gas that makes diesel at the 10-20 gal/day level in conjunction with their 50(60)kW power gasifier. Diesel, power and heat all out of the same biomass gasifier. How 'bout that!"

Interesting indeed. Last time I was on the CPC web site there was not this information.
Dr Reed has done contract design work for them so he may be releasing this information prematurly.
Theroretically feasible. Wonderfull developement if they have actually achieved this.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.
SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Wood Gasifer Kit Now Offered
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 03:34:42 AM »
Hello All

I've been reading some posts by Ken Boak over on the Yahoo Lister owners group. He seems to have the most interest in woodgasify fueling his CSs.
On Nov 8th he posted some interesting India Institute of Science research papers at:

http://eprints.iisc.ernet.in/cgi/search/simple?q=hosahalli&action_search=Search&_order=bytitle&basic_srchtype=ALL&_satisFyall=ALL

Very, very interesting and encouraging engine and fuel consumption information.
These show an optimum usable Compression Ratio of 17/1 on both dual fuel (woodgas/diesel) and straight woodgas. Just what most CSs are set up at.
They show timing curves at different CRs of 11.5 to 17/1 with Nox data.
Graphed cylinder pressure rise times per crank angle at different CRs. Dual fueled 17/1 had the highest fattest curve. Means more/greater  push for more degrees of crankshaft rotation.
June 2009 Edit: MY MISTAKE HERE. The results were with a 3 cylinder DI style engines. I have since discovered the Indian engineers have abandoned CS style IDI woodgas research and development.  S. U.

They have 15 years accumulated field experience on 3.7 kWe to 20kWe systems with fuel substitution rates of 63 to 83%.
They chart  breakdown/maintinance cost for the gasifier, engine and gen haed over the course of 2190 days.
Lots and lots of good information here.

I hope some of you will take an interest to read through these papers and kick what you see back and forth with me.

Thanks
SteveU.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 06:24:08 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.