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Author Topic: Circuit Breakers  (Read 24471 times)

solarguy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2006, 04:09:01 PM »
It's always easier to make a recommendation if you can see the layout and poke around in there...

Despite that, I'll throw out an option, and other more experienced hands can go from there.

What I would do is install a subpanel with breaker(s) that drives your 120V circuit(s).  "Upstream" from that subpanel, I would put the generator transfer switch, which is just a glorified A/B box.  Your two sources of electricity feed into this transfer switch, one from your present main panel powered by the Detroit, the other from your Lister generator.  The feed from the main panel needs a breaker appropriately sized to protect the wire from the main panel to the gen switch, and the feed from the Lister generator also needs breaker or fuse protection for the wire from the generator to the gen switch panel.  This setup prevents you from ever electrifiying the 220 stuff with the Lister or from ever accidentally connecting the two generators which would be BAD.

Comments??

Finest regards,

troy

GuyFawkes

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2006, 04:19:12 PM »
don't re-invent the wheel

the genuine lister start-o-matics addressed all these problems

http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

trigzy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2006, 04:47:15 PM »
don't re-invent the wheel

the genuine lister start-o-matics addressed all these problems

http://www.surfbaud.co.uk/Lister/
We're not reinventing the wheel.  Our "road" is a little bit different, so we need a different "wheel" than you do.  Our voltage here is 120/240, and we have special requirements for bonding and grounding.  Genuine Listers wouldn't be able to address either issue, and eletrical inspectors here would never approve such a unit without some serious overhauls.  Although UL & CSA, and US & Canadian elctrical standards in general are accepted almost all over the world, the reverse certainly isn't true.  Inspectors over here will just laugh at more European electrical ratings, standards and codes.

I like troys idea, even though I had to read through it a couple times.  I drew this little diagram of what troy was explaining:


DETROIT {~}---->   [120/240 PANEL]  ---------->>---------- [X-FER SWITCH]-->>----->[120V PANEL]
                                   |                                               |                                      |
                                   |                                               ^                                     |
                                   |                                               |                                      |
                                   |                                             {~}                                    |
                            240V and BIG LOADS                        LISTER                            SMALL 120 V LOADS

It is simple, and offers the least posbility for screw-ups.  We COULD put a transfer switch before the 120/240V panel, but it will need to have a higher rating, and then there are some "ifs and buts" about hooking up only 120V from the Lister.  I the above scenario, anything you want to run off the lister would have to be on the 120V panel (including the battery charger for your detroit) and your bigger loads would go on the 120/240V panel.  My {~} indicates a fuse or breaker right at the generators, and I'm assuming that your 120/240V panel will have a main breaker and a breaker feeding the X-fer switch.  The small 120V panel wouldn't require it's own main breaker in this scenario, but I'd use a breaker on the lister as it's easier to reset.

If you're interested in this setup, we can talk about grounding and bonding in more detail.  Whatever you do, make sure that you only have one ground.  (Ie. dont put in a ground rod in one spot, and another one 50' away and ground half the building with one, and the other half with another, or even tie them together.  I'll say it again: ONLY ONE GROUND)  Of course, you can put multiple plates/rods down in the same area, and infact that is recommended.  But they should all be attached with the same wire.

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

rpg52

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2006, 04:58:10 PM »
Thanks so much everyone.
Trigzy, your proposed solution would actually be a lot easier than what I was thinking of doing.  The existing panel is already working well, and it would be much easier to route the wiring through another panel.  I was initially thinking of cutting the circuit from the Detroit, installing the transfer switch, then routing the Lister into that. 
I'll do some photos in a week or so, after the weather relents a bit.  Thanks again!
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

trigzy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2006, 05:17:44 PM »
Ray,
     It was actually troys idea, I just made the pretty picture. Do you have a transfer switch yet?  Are the neutral/ground bonded together in your Detroit?  If we set this up right, you might not even need a "transfer switch", we might be able to find a large relay or "3-way" switch and save you some $$$.


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

GuyFawkes

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2006, 05:31:10 PM »
Although UL & CSA, and US & Canadian elctrical standards in general are accepted almost all over the world, the reverse certainly isn't true.  Inspectors over here will just laugh at more European electrical ratings, standards and codes.

you really are a grade a idiot.

USAian electrical standards are just sooooooooo high, we poor europeans could never possibly hope to meet them.

come over to the UK some time, if you can find ANY domestic mains socket anywhere in any house that doesn't have a proper earth pin that HAS to be inserted before the live and neutral pins _can_ be inserted then I'll give you 100,000 of your petro dollars.

or perhaps you can advise us why 110 VAC domestic is so much safer than 220 VAC

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

solarguy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2006, 05:44:00 PM »
Dear Guy,

It's not really a question of better, it's a question of different. 

Good luck and have fun!

troy

ps, Hey Trigzy, thanks for the diagram, much easier...

fuddyduddy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2006, 05:54:32 PM »
Trigzy, that was a grade A answer. Thank you

Guy, go fuck yourself to tears.  At times you almost make sense, and then you go off like some demented old sot. You really should allow 24 hours after you quit drinking before you post here. BTW, our standard is not "110 VAC domestic", it is 120/240V, as trigzy wrote.




trigzy

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2006, 06:01:40 PM »
Quote
you really are a grade a idiot.
Personal attacks are unnecessary.
Quote
USAian electrical standards are just sooooooooo high, we poor europeans could never possibly hope to meet them.

come over to the UK some time, if you can find ANY domestic mains socket anywhere in any house that doesn't have a proper earth pin that HAS to be inserted before the live and neutral pins _can_ be inserted then I'll give you 100,000 of your petro dollars.

or perhaps you can advise us why 110 VAC domestic is so much safer than 220 VAC
Your wiring standards are fine, but the ratings applied on generators, appliances, breakers, wire etc are must less stringent.  Hence the multitudes of items available with CE etc. marks, but few available with UL marks, and the large cost spread between them.
Our plugs have grounds that have to be plugged in first as well, and I'm not about to justify our reverse compatibility with old standards.  Europe did have this (and other similar saftey systems implemented faster than North America, I'll give you that.  Early North American wiring makes me shake my head.

Who said 120 was safer?  Anyone arguing the safety of any voltage is COMPLETELY missing the point, the safety should come from the design that the user can never touch a conductor, not that one voltage is "safer" than another to get electrocuted by.  Even Edison and Westinghouse made that mistake.  The whole 120/240 thing is a really stupid setup, and quite regrettable, but you cant tell everyone to throw out thier old stuff and change millions of houses worth of wiring.


Steve

Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

rgroves

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2006, 06:22:43 PM »
Quote

you really are a grade a idiot.

USAian electrical standards are just sooooooooo high, we poor europeans could never possibly hope to meet them.

Quote

Guy, Guy, we all know this isn't really about electricity, is it?

Now sit down, have a cup of tea, and let me sing you a little song by the legendary Johnny Horton:

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

[Chorus:]
We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

[Chorus]

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

[Chorus]

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.




Now - don't you feel better?

Love and kisses

Russell
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

jimmer

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2006, 06:44:29 PM »

Doug

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2006, 08:01:02 PM »
From Guy Fawkes

"USAian electrical standards are just sooooooooo high, we poor Europeans could never possibly hope to meet them.
perhaps you can advise us why 110 VAC domestic is so much safer than 220 VAC"

Well, some standards are different don't get your knickers in a twist. I have built equipment destine for markets from China to the EU and there is a good reason for differences in local codes. Climate, safety standards, available fault current on the power system and  in many cases simply the way people prefer to have things wired. I don't personally feel there is a right or wrong set of standards most are very close at least in intent. Me I like European 240/380 low voltage 50Hz 3 phase power systems and wish we had them here instead of the Edison 3 wire but the die has been cast....


And from Steve

Grounding / Bonding systems like this is a major issue that even most residential/industrial electricians wont understand fully

That doesn't truly reflect the reality of the modern trades man in Ontario. Not only do I understand them, I build them. And you should be quite leery of any electrician who doesn't. 40 hours a week I build and baby sit a distributed power system the size of small city with voltages ranging from 120v to 69 kV that is constantly evolving growing to adapt to the changing requirements for safety and to provide power for production as the mine I work in grows and becomes deeper ( And now that 110 year old mine is 7810 feet deep with at least 60 miles of drifts raises and ramps and shafts ) and for the sake of my friends I sure hope I understand what I am doing.

Talk is cheap, do you want to find out the right way to do things?
Call your local hydro inspector ask him some intelligent questions and buy a code book.
Then get the bloody thing inspected and you'll sleep sound.

Fusing vs. CBs....
I deal with both kinds, I like fuses they're simple safe and proven. If your blowing a lot of fuses or tripping a lot of brakers that means something is wrong or overloaded and it shouldn't happen in the first place.
Do you want to know why I like fuses? They work only once and then you replace them no questions or doubts.
They don't blow up in your face like I've had happen to me when after years of resetting and neglect they finally fail.

Now I can hear Steve chomping at the bit when I say fuses don't blow up because they can if you choose the wrong one for your ap. But then this comes back to knowing what you are doing. All things in electrical must be engineered to a standard that reflects the conditions of there use. Some might think this is beyond the understanding of a humble trades man in mine but I have an inter provincial ticket and 5 cog silver ring on my finger that says I can do a fault calculations and size fuses and CBs and understand their characteristics.

Currently I am working on writing a new standard for the inspection and upgrades of our small 500-1333 kVA portable 13.8 Kv portable substations to try and improve reliability and safety because I have found problems with the cables that were made to a US standard not CSA that are showing signs of insulation failure from corona damage and the neutral resistor monitoring system (part of system that limits fault current incase of a short to ground in our ground fault protection systems). Safety and reliability are an on going process that I am proud to be part of in co-operation with ESA, CSA and the authors M-421 electrical systems of the mining act.

My goal is increase my "ass time" in chair in the 7000 electrical shop an not "wrench time" fixing failures or worse writing reports on accidents that hurt my friends.

Lets get back to thread now and talk about the safest, cheapest, and simplest wire one of these blooding things without slinging mud at standards, those who write them or the people that turn them into reality.

Doug

GuyFawkes

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2006, 08:13:51 PM »
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2006, 08:17:31 PM »
Quote
you really are a grade a idiot.
Personal attacks are unnecessary.
Quote

no. nor is ill informed bigotry, which is what your post was.

take some time and learn a little about the subject (eg european electrical standards) before pronouncing them as inferior and worthy of nothing more than laughter from superior american/canadian elctricians and you'll find generally in life you'll get a hell of a lot less people making what you deem to be personal attacks.

you as a person are probably a great bloke, but you are talking shit, too bad if you don't like being called on it.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

t19

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Re: Circuit Breakers
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2006, 11:54:54 PM »
Gentlemen, and I am using the term in the best possible way, lets move on, nobodies system is the best, as posted, all systems take into account local problems, rules and customs.  Everyone has the best intend, no system is better, they just are.

Cut the personnal attacks, it takes away from the general comradship and love of the listers.

There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...