Author Topic: white smoke What happened??  (Read 17793 times)

Petersbpus

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white smoke What happened??
« on: July 31, 2008, 08:19:15 PM »
First test run just up to temperature,no load yet, barely opened the thermostat went just fine, I did'nt have my infared thermometer so I shut it down,

The next time it wouldn;t start  :o :o, a few pops and then puffing white smoke,, OH God what broke!! Checked everything including spray of injector while hanging on the side of the engine, Of course, then I had a compression leak at the injector copper seal, got a handful of spares at the Detroit place at lunch, then after work still a few popps and white smoke. More fuel bleeding etc, then finally It took off and ran maybe 10 minutes and slowly began to hunt and pulse,(I'm thinking maybe air at this point) then slowing and puffing white unburned fuel and stopped..
Now I have no "clink" of the injection pump, but it seems to pump out fuel at the injector line.
After the rebuild I had an air lock in the pump which I finally fixed by taking the nipple and spring off the top of the pump and cycling it thru to clear fuel  then replacing and purging the injector line.
I haven't had the injection pump apart except for the top metering valve and spring,
fuel level was low, but I used a mirror and verified the fitting is covered with fuel, added some anyway.
Opened bleed screw on filter seems :o :o ok.
I'll purge the injection pump again,
You Veterans  must have experienced this ???
What it is??
Bob
I'm working on gen. head bracker so I can load it up for breakin.

 
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

Quinnf

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2008, 08:52:47 PM »
Sounds like you're not injecting right.  If you're building up proper pressure in your high pressure line to the injector, you should hear a distinct "tink" sound from the injector.  If it sounds more like a "screeeech" than a "tink" you likely have air bubbles.  Check that all fittings are tight, and always bleed each fitting in sequence from the fuel filter pit;et to the injector.  As you mention, you really have to take out the spring and valve from the fuel injection pump to get the air out of it.  Last thing I verify is that fuel is getting to the injector by cracking loose the injector fitting, crank with compression released and make sure that drops of oil are dribbling out of the fitting with no little air bubbles in them, then, while cranking, I slowly tighten the injector fitting until the leak stops, then cinch it down.

White smoke means unburned fuel, either from low compression, improper injection timing or partial burning of fuel puddled on top of the piston and rings from prior injections. 

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

ronmar

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 03:33:31 AM »
To add to what Quinn said, white smoke can also be too little fuel from a dribbling or partially firing injector.  Not enough to make a pop, just enough to smoke.  Kind of like dripping a drip of diesel fuel onto a hot frying pan, just a little wiff of smoke.  One thing I learned from Hotater is that new rubber fuel lines like the ones on your little indian beauty when first filled with diesel will have tiny air bubbles on the inside surface.  These work themselvs out eventually, but collect in the fuel flter and injector pump to become big bubbles.  This makes the initial purge a real pain.  Take a medium sized screwdriver and holding it by the blade end, thump the rubber fuel lines repeatedly with the handle to break the bubbles loose so they are easier to purge in the filter and pump. Your description of it hunting and missfiring during your initial run sounds like these micro air bubbles working out of the rubber lines and fouling the injector pump and HP hardline.

Another trick for purging the pump is to just rotate/rock the flywheel wheel back and forth over the area where the injector fires.  It only takes about 1/4 of a flywheel revolution to roll the injector cam past the peak, and you get a pump stroke each direction.  This is far easier and faster than rolling the wheel thru 2 revolutions to get a single pump stroke.  Also make sure the fuel rack is wide open so the pump is trying to move the largest volume of fuel with each stroke.  Start at the tank and work to the injector after tapping all the lines for a few minutes.  Once you think you have all the airl out and the last place you are bleeding clear bubble free fuel is at the injector fitting, when you close it, you will probably hear a wheeze, then a rapid series of soft "tinks" kind of like rapidly druming the fingers of your hand on a table.  As more air works out of the injector, these multiple tinks will begin to blend into one "creak' as the injector fires in a single burst.         
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

xyzer

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 05:11:53 AM »
fuel level was low, but I used a mirror and verified the fitting is covered with fuel, added some anyway.

There might be fuel over the fitting at rest but when it is running a little low It looks different in there I bet! One big slurp and your bleedin :P....IMO
Dave
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Petersbpus

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 11:15:09 PM »
Lot's of good feedback and additional information, Thanks.
Problem may have been a pinched fuel line, The little fixed length line between the filter and injection pump, is a little long and had kind of a bit of a crease in it,
That wouldn't have been a problem with first world fuel line, I guess inside the chineese handcuff covering of this stuff must be some soft line??
I loosened the banjo and nothing canme out, :o took it out of pump and moved it straight and fuel poured out ;D That indian  lines will all go away later when it is plumed for burning hydralic oil.
Further tests will have to wait until I finish AC head adjustable bracket and can load it up.
Putting it all on my "temporary" wood frame, sort out the details and fab. the steel one.
want to get some good out of it this summer,Told wife we can save on electric bill ,all I have to do is spend a few thousand plus  and all my spare time for the forseable future.
I have alot of Old diesel available,

just goes to show can't be to careful even with simple machines, it's all in the details! Getting rid of 4oz of sand helps too!!
Cam shaft gov weights were 7 grams different in weight!!
At least with new TRB's and proper end play it cranks noticably easier.
Xyzer hollow dipper,,,,, rock on!
Bob P.
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

sid

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 12:32:16 AM »
I think we have mentioned this several times before// if you have the stainless steel braided fuel lines/ grind them off and replace them// they will swell and block the fuel/ it only takes a few minutes and it is a permanent repair/sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

horsefly76

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2008, 10:18:28 PM »
 Same thing happened to me when I removed fuel lines for inspection as I have been running Bio-diesel. (Lines have been replaced from the crappy Indian stuff) Had a hard time getting all of the air out. Lot of white smoke and half hearted firing.

Engine ran for 15 sec then- Puff puff puff puff..............................#%(*&%*%_)( >:(

Bleed every thing again. And make sure you get a solid "clank" from the injector. I was getting a "tick" from it and thought I was good to go. ::) nope.

Just my $0.02

Aaron.
2007 Metro 6/1 Running on Biodiesel (Thank's Sam!)
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M61hops

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 11:13:16 PM »
The braided fuel line on my Metro look exactly like the cheap made in china water supply lines for sink faucet feeds.  I suspect that that has something to do with this problem ???.  They used water lines to carry fuel  :o !!!                              Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Petersbpus

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 04:25:45 AM »
never thought of air stuck to inside of  the lines, Maybe a quick washout with Laquer thinner then prewet with diesel before installation,
Maybe there is a presertave coating on the fuel line material to protect from air exposure ???  Or it's a release agent from manufacturing process.. that won't release surface tention.
When we install or repair a large complex multi curcuit hydralic systems, bleeding the system is always interesting, that different but it's the small bubbles not the big ones that cause the problems.
With the supply line kinked\blocked the pump is likely to pull some air and starve out too.
My lines are covered with this close weave black plastic that hides the lines inside.
My Changfoid's (actually Xing Dong)1115's came with braided water lines as fuel lines.
Bob P.
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

ronmar

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2008, 04:30:21 AM »
Tapping the lines usually disloges and combines the tiny bubbles, at least it seemed to work OK for me.
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Jim Mc

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 03:19:09 AM »
Might not be a fuel issue at all.   How are your valeve clearances?  If mis-adjusted, the resulting low compression will definitely cause white 'smoke.'


mactoollover2005

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 07:09:16 PM »
Ronmar-
            "Another trick for purging the pump is to just rotate/rock the flywheel wheel back and forth over the area where the injector fires.  It only takes about 1/4 of a flywheel revolution to roll the injector cam past the peak, and you get a pump stroke each direction.  This is far easier and faster than rolling the wheel thru 2 revolutions to get a single pump stroke."

        1 question i have is, how is this possible to bleed air from the injector when on one stroke you pressurize the fuel going to the injector from the pump and when you reverse the pump direction it should cause air to be sucked into the fuel line at the injector.... SO how does this method bleed all the air from the fuel system??

        Or does this trick only work with fuel injector pumps that have a return line coming off the pump and back to the tank and not the return line coming off the injector itself?

  Curiouse minds want to know....

Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

M61hops

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 07:31:44 PM »
Hi Derek:  I think this is assumeing that the check valve is working properly and only allowing fuel to flow towards the injector.  If you have a bad check valve the motor has no chance of running no matter what other problems are existing.           Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

MacGyver

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 07:44:24 PM »
Derek,
The injector pump is just a plunger riding up and down on a cam lobe.
When the plunger goes down (under spring pressure) it admits fuel from the tank. When the plunger is pushed up by the cam it pressurizes fuel to the injector.
It's all about the up and down motion and the pump neither knows nor cares which direction the cam that's driving it turns.  Rotating the engine backwards squirts a load of fuel at the injector just like going forward does.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 10:22:06 PM by MacGyver »
Steve

JKson (PS) 6/1 'roid & ST 7.5

oliver90owner

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Re: white smoke What happened??
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 10:09:27 PM »
MacGyver,

It don't even suck.  It just fills by gravity.  Only a subtle difference I know, but that may give the impression that the tank could be lower than the IP, which is not the case.  It needs gravity - that is why Lister always specified the minimum height, above the IP, for the fuel tank.

Regards, RAB