Author Topic: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids  (Read 7576 times)

dieseldave

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Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« on: May 23, 2008, 04:05:35 PM »

  I was at a website a few days ago that sells a product that will keep your tires balanced automatically throughout the life of the tire.
  They were ceramic beads that are installed inside the tire. When the tire is spinning,centrifugal force sends them out to the outside of the tire and the beads go where they are needed.

  Would it be possible to mount two tires,one on each side,onto a listeroid,using these ceramic beads?

  What about filing a tire with the appropriate amount of glycol (freezing conditions in Canada). Would this not work in the same way as the ceramic beads.

  I would really like to take the 'hit or miss' out of this operation!

  I seen a post on this forum,I think it was this forum ,where somebody is trying steel balls in3/4 aquarium tubing to find where to put permanent wieghts.  I cant find the post!

 

rbodell

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 06:20:22 PM »

  I was at a website a few days ago that sells a product that will keep your tires balanced automatically throughout the life of the tire.
  They were ceramic beads that are installed inside the tire. When the tire is spinning,centrifugal force sends them out to the outside of the tire and the beads go where they are needed.

  Would it be possible to mount two tires,one on each side,onto a listeroid,using these ceramic beads?

  What about filing a tire with the appropriate amount of glycol (freezing conditions in Canada). Would this not work in the same way as the ceramic beads.

  I would really like to take the 'hit or miss' out of this operation!

  I seen a post on this forum,I think it was this forum ,where somebody is trying steel balls in3/4 aquarium tubing to find where to put permanent wieghts.  I cant find the post!

 

You remember back in the old days when they used to balance your tires on your car? I always wondered what was inside that thing the placed on your tire like a hub cap with the adjusters to adjust it toll it ran true and told you how much and where to put the weight.

There must be somebody on here that could duplicate that and find a way to adapt it to a roid. Obviously you would have to get your investment back, but you could rent it out.  I don't need one but if I did, I would be glad to pay 50 bucks plus shipping to have a nice easy sure thing like that, maybe more.
The shear depth of my shallowness is perplexing yet morbidly interesting. Bob 2007

dieseldave

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 06:45:07 PM »
   To rbodell; I am not old enough to remember that type of balancer. I just have seen the new ones with strobe lights,etc.

   Nowadays,it seems, everybody wants to make everything into a 'black art'. About 10 years ago,they balanced the front wheels of my Calvy Mitchel kit car 'in situ' I thought that was kind of neat. The tire sat in a cradle consisting of one idler roller and a driven roller. The tire was spun up to highway speeds and a strobe would indicate where the wieght had to be.Tire wieghts were added until imbalance stopped.

I think I will visit a tire shop and try to find out more. As I said,I would like to be able to balance my Listeroid 14/1 as a 'unit' and at operating temperature.    Also something that is variable might compensate when a load is applied.

Dave.

cold comfort farm

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 07:14:18 PM »
Dave, Dont forget you are trying to balance the reaction of the piston as well.  if you look at your flywheel you will see there is a bit of additional mass on one of the spoke.  This will be opposite TDC. Try some moulding clay and see what happens. 

There are other posts on here about balancing flywheels.  I do think there is some mileage in your thoughts though.

Here in the UK we still take our wheels off and put them on a machine for balancing.

Hope it helps

Stephen

ronmar

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 03:30:16 AM »
As long as you spin it up with a smooth running outside power source, such as an electric motor, it works very well.  That is how I did it, except I used a dial indicator to gauge the ammount of movement, instead of a strobe light showing where the movement was.  That is kind of the same theory behind the chalk method.  The "black art" is knowing how to interpret what you are seeing.

If you try and do it while the engine is running, the torque pulses are going to confuse things somewhat.  To gauge the motion, and learn where the weight is required,  you have to allow the thing to move some.  I put mine up on 3/4" round stock Rollers, and could, push the whole 1000# assembly(engine, frame, generator) easilly with a fingertip. 

I do not know if the ceramic bead type active balancers would react well to the torque pulses, but that is mostly just a feeling.  I have no facts to say that they would not work as advertised. 

Ron
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blacksea7

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2008, 01:23:42 AM »
Hi all,

Constant speed single cylinders had overly large weights bolted to the crank... the purpose was to quell as much of the secondary imbalance while addressing the primary imbalance. The bottom line is there is no earthly way (without countershafts running twice speed) to settle a single cylinder's balance issues. It simply can't be done. Twins, being what they are, opposed journals weighted opposite the crank pin were constant throughout the range... constant or variable used the same weights... there were no exceptions so if you have a twin with oversize weights, someone has been tinkering where they shouldn't have been. The twins ran smoothly with enough internal weight to quell the secondary imbalance while addressing the primary imbalance remarkably well. The triples were weighted on opposite ends of the crank at a tangent to the centre crank throw... a method used to this day. I strongly suggest leaving the balance as it left the factory.

If it's a single cylinder engine you're arguing with the best way is to anchor it to what ever doesn't move. If you're worried about the engine rotating about the floor on an axis at or near the centerline of the crank, there's little you can do as once the fuel is ignited the rod pushes only one way without anything to counter its efforts opposite this rod. Add to it the weight of the flywheel the engine will rotate. If you want to see a Lister spin, light off an LT-1 with pintle injection... you'll wonder which is spinning faster.. the crank or the entire engine!

If you're thinking about balancing an single cylinder by putting all the rotating and weights to mimic all reciprocating parts on a balancer, you can balance either primary or secondary.. you'll never get both.  Something to remember too, due to the size of the rod, its heft and weight, there's actually more pressure exerted against the rod throw at 90 degrees than there is combustion pressure acting upon the piston. Not an uncommon issue... simply one the vast majority fail to acknowledge or have knowledge about.

Petersbpus

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2008, 04:13:31 AM »
Hello all,
I had done some experiments with the rotating weights inside clear tube, here is the link to youtube vid of the setup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-DzKKHEUA0

I couldn't come up with steel balls big enough to photograph while rotating, (Outdoor world was out of large sling shot ammo) So I opted for marbles, they were pretty heavy and easily photographed..
I got the idea from the Centramatic web site in thier How it works section.
I only got to do a few tests, while tapeing BIG nuts to the inside of the flwheel, for weight, I decided this was a little dangerious, then trying to calculate the MPH of a flung nut. ;)
Decided to get some modeling clay instead, but then decided to tear the engine down like everyone said was the right thing to do.
now it's in pieces and working on plan C ( a and b failed) to remove Gibb keys.
I did buy 4 tractor trailor balancing discs, the tube is easily removed from the sheet metal in the middle, leaving only the tube.
They are 17" diameter and I planned on lashing them on the flywheels.
one concern I do have as to the effectiveness in this application is the constasnt acceleration and deceleration on each stroke, this may keep the shot moving to much to be effective,


There is an old time tire store near here that has the clamp on wheel  balancer with the internal moving weights,
fabrication of an adaptor with enough standoff to clear the end of the crank might be tedious but doable.
I would prefer this to my moving balls idea. :o although they may respond to varing balance with changing load??

regards
Bob



Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

Stan

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2008, 05:20:19 AM »
Bob....somewhere waaaay back in the beginning of the forum, someone tried this and it didn't work.  I'm just relying on memory here  ::)  so do some research for your self and see if you can find the posts.
Stan

btw....If you have a badly out of balance machine, I don't care what it is, and you anchor it to something unbreakable and immovable, something's going to break and it's probably going to be your machine.
Stan

Petersbpus

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 11:04:58 AM »
I hear Ya, with all the great minds out there with to much time on thier hands, or the  need to escape(wife) out to the shop/garage for necessary experiments, I imagine this has had some research.
From what I heard of coments from my first run vid, the balance on mine is pretty good out of the box, it travels the floor but not shaking badly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kAL4c57sKQ

I did have the fork lift tines resting on my temporary frame just in case.

Like I said it's in pieces now, on sand removal detail,
I didn't cause any big damage by test running it, but the BIG end bearing has some embeded particles and will be replaced the crank will get a polish when I get it out.
 
So far I ran across one big defect, there is a hole in the cylinder casting which allows water into one of the head bolt holes,
just about half way down
I guess this is not terminal for the casting but will allow water to lay in with the head biolt and then depends upon the base gasket to keep water from leaking out or into the crank case.
I reeally wanted to get some use and savings out of My Save the Planet electrification project, but the rebuild is important, to keep from destroving the rotating parts,
I cleaned and scraped and flushed the case as much as anyone could, but after the test runs crud and particles were in the bottom so, surgery began,
Bob
Listeroid 6/1 in progress
Alllis Chalmers 60KW 3 ph
Changfaoid 12KW w/  auto shutdowns, modern AVR and panel
2nd Changfaoid 12KW Marine conversion w/ full auto shutdown and remote panel
Changfaoid 7.7 hp driving 5kw alternater /inverter,
other diesel gensets bought fixed and sold

Stan

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 03:02:49 PM »
Sounds like a job for J. B. Weld!
Stan

M61hops

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 01:17:44 AM »
BLACKSEA7, thanks for your post, a light went off in my head when I read it today!  I balanced my 6-1 'roid by spinning it with a golf cart motor belted to a flywheel and I couldn't figure out why I had to add weight 90 degrees from the cast flywheel weights ???.  Reading your post makes me think I was balancing the rod weight not the piston weight like I thought!  Now at least a tiny portion of reality seems to make sense; I like the feeling that gives me :P!      Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

ronmar

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Re: Unconventional Methods of Balancing Listeroids
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 04:56:57 AM »
Yep, the piston weight is mostly out of the equation as it is moving up and down.  It is the 20# or so of crank offset weight(calculated?) and the rod big end weight that is rotating with the crank that you are compensating/balancing for.   
PS 6/1 - ST-5.