Author Topic: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.  (Read 8489 times)

GuyFawkes

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Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« on: March 05, 2006, 10:40:59 PM »
Ok, might as well start off by stating that (as those who have read my stuff before will already know) I am an opinionated git, something I do not deny, but, my saving grace is my opinions are based on experience, both my own and the decades of experience each of many other now deceased engineers.

Two things strike me in reading these forums, and they both can be described as the dreams of expectations of those people who are buying or considering buying listers or listeroids.

1/ Their listeroid is going to produce (because every one I have seen talked about here is being used to drive an AC generator head) more kilowatt hours of electricity per litre of fuel used than any other engine on the planet.

2/ Their listeroid is so mechanically simple that any child who can assemble three lego bricks can work on one and do first class work.

Sadly, neither of these are true.

Any given fuel has a given amount of available energy per given volume of fuel, back in the day this was measured in british thermal units, and now I'm going to take a small detour.

Look at your computer screen, it has a diagonal dimension, provided you have a STANDARDISED (eg compared against a refeence) measuring tool, it does not matter one iota what it is calibrated in, inches, millimetres, cubits, grains of what, whatever, the actual physical dimension of your screen is unchanged.

So, back in the day it was BTU, now it is something else depending on where you are, who you are, what your trade is, no matter, the amount of energy per given volume or given fuel is the same.

Converting the potential heat energy in furl into motive energy, or electricity, has been done a number of ways, all of which are pretty much fuel dependant, eg coal fired a steam engine, light or medium diesel fired an internal combustion engine.

While there are differences in efficiency between the different types of conversion, eg steam vs internal combustion, the range of efficiencies within each sub-type, eg piston steam engines or turbine steam engines, or naturally aspirated diesels or blown diesels, has always been far smaller.

Anyone who thinks a 70 year old design of diesel engine is going to be significantly more fuel efficient at converting the potential heat energy of a fuel into electrical energy than a more modern design, frankly, is kidding himself and needs a refresher course is physics and engineering, it ain't gonna happen.

Lister(oids) have their advantages, but somehow magically delivering twice the fuel efficiency of any other diesel engine isn't one of them.

If you think the listeroid solution to electrical power generation is going to beat everything else per drum of diesel consumed you're in  for a nasty shock, the flip side of this is if you think your listeroid solution will generate your daily requirement in KWH for less diesel fuel than everything else you're in for the same nasty shock.

The listeroid is continuous duty, very low maintenance, very low running costs for everything excluding the diesel, and very long service lifetime, but it is not some magical device capable of consuming diesel at an efficiency greater than any other diesel.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

The next myth is anyone can work on one, anyone can disassemble a japanese motorcycle engine too.

Let me give you an example.

Just because the rated RPM of the lister is lower than more modern engines, and just because the design of the lister is continuous duty rather than intermittent peak like more modern engine, the laws of phsyics haven't changed here either. The lister is just more tolerant of your cack handedness, that doesn't mean it likes it.

A 200 pound (in weight) man can tolerate a bottle of whisky a lot better than a 90 pound boy, but per pound of body weight they have the same tolerance (all other things such as metabolism being equal) so if you like you can say the man is built to take more abuse than the boy.

Same thing with engines, just because the lister is built to take more abuse, that doesn't mean you should dish it out, because the fip side of the 90 pound boy and 200 pound man is give then GOOD food and drink (fuel) and the man will do far more work per day than the boy. He won't necessarily do more work per pound of body weight, but he will do more work per individual person.

Listers are the same, just because you CAN slam big end bearings on any old how and the bitch will work, whereas the same approach to a japanese motorcycle engine (my dad always used to call them "sewing machines" ... lol) will result in near instant catastrophic failure, does not mean you SHOULD.

A bearing is a bearing is a bearing is a bearing.

You can get (possibly bigger, but I personally have never been exposed to them) 36 inch diameter bearing journals, and I'm here to tell you that APART from the thermal expansion present in such big journals fitting tolerances were STILL measured in thousandths of an inch.

You SHOULD take just as much care with a lister bearing (or any other part come to that) as you would with a japanese motorbike, it will pay you back in mechanical and thermal efficiency, reliability, longevity, lowered running costs and any other way you can shake a stick at, INCLUDING over all labour in hours.

I have mentioned, several times, prussian blue.

I have seen other people mention grinding journals by hand with wet and dry and a micrometer, "to check it (the journal) is round"

Folks, THAT IS NOT ANYWHERE NEAR GOOD ENOUGH.

perfectly round is NOT GOOD ENOUGH

it MUST also be PERFECTLY CYLINDRICAL across the whole journal, and the fillets at the edge have to be right too, and the ONLY way you can do this manually is with prussian blue (or india ink, or red or white lead).

Do it right with prussian blue and you can achieve a finish BETTER than a fiftieth of a thou if you have good eyes in a well lit shop, or a tenth of a thou with old eyes and a 100 watt filament bulb.

You read that right, done correctly, manually with prussian blue you can do a better job than ANY commerical crank grinding service working to standard tolerances.

when the blue is uniform after you rotated the rod a couple of times (yeah that's right, you still gotta have the crank and rod stripped from the block, there are NO short cuts in engineering, there is only the right way, and every other way, and the right way is ALWAYS the best way, the cheapest way, the most reliable way, etc etc, in the long run) and then the oiled journal just lets the rod drop nice and fast under its own weight then going back to the units of measurement thing, it don't actually matter what the dimensions are, because it is right, and all you have to do then is ensure a constant supply of clean and within spec and temp range lubricant and that bearing will give you more hours service than you will ever get any other way

disclaimer, i have never personally seen or touched a listeroid.

having said that, someone else on here said it right, you're not buying a motor, you're buying a kit of parts, but I should like to qualify their statement, you are buying a kit of UNFINISHED parts with many sub standard generic components thrown in, such as bearings.

The lister factory in the fifties did not have access to better engineers than the indians, you can find any number of BLOODY good engineers in india, they just cost a lot more to employ than grease monkeys, plus you need an adequate shop and tooling for them, then you need to give them an adequate amount of finishing time on each part, and ability and authority to influence earlier stages in the production process.

Do that and you'll get genuine lister quality, longevity, reliability, etc etc etc.

Do that and you get genuine lister prices, about 5000 bucks a motor, not 400.

Do that and YOU never need to do anything except change fluids etc.

Do not do that and then YOU need to take up that slack and do ALL those jobs.

Doing that will cost you TIME and a minimum basic acquisition of skill, attention to detail and minimum standards of your work.

-------------------------------

So, a listeroid will not magically give you more KWH of electricity per gallon of diesel than any other diesel generator, a listeroid will not  magically compensate for Ug the caveman mechanical dexterity, or lack of same, so a listeroid is not a magical, cheap or easy way to get there (home brew AC power) from here, what it is is an AFFORDABLE, ___if___ you have the time and dedication, kit, which when completed becomes something you personally can be quite genuinely proud of.

Do that and you will know, for a fact, inside yourself, that push came to shove the only bits you didn't do, which was the rough castings and making the turned parts on a lathe, you COULD do if push came to shove.

You STILL won't get any more KWH per gallon of diesel than the guy with the shop bought modern unit.

___you___ however will not be stood there with your dick swinging in the wind when your genny dies, he will, because he bought a commodity item, essentially a unit "thing" that you throw away, like a starter motor (whereas they used to be rebuilt) and that means he isn't in control, he is at the mercy of his supply chain and buying power, you aren't

-----------------------------------------

A footnote on the bhp vs torque thing.

I see a couple of you (hotater) live in the "boondocks" (you lucky bastards, can't get that far from people in densely populated europe) and to those people I will say this.

please please please keep your eyes out for mechanically driven stuff like water pumps and such like (hell, even a fast and loose belt driven workshop) and try em on your lister(oid), then you'll understand the bhp vs torue thing, and the downside of the swings and roundabouts, no such thing as a free lunch, that is AC power generation, which is REALLY convenient for power transmission, but loses you all that lovely torque. (diesel electric locomotives only care about torque, and they don't use single phase 120/240 VAC)

Belt drive or direct couple a lister to your pump or whatever and watch that baby punch way way way over its 6 bhp weight.

cheers
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2006, 12:39:12 AM »
Guy;
Quite a few of us are marine engineers, diesel mechanics, or other engineering trades, yet those of us 50 and younger seldom get our hands into fitting bearings etc. like in a Listeroid. We spend a career changing out parts and wishing we could make decisions on our work a little farther back up the management train. Some of us get to after 40, when we are considered old enough to have some judgement.
These Listeroids / powerplants are our chance to play around at our pace and level of interest.
The center main bearing I got as a warantee replacement didn't fit, so I made it fit by file and shim. Perfect, no. I have my doubts, but that's because I never did it at work. I still did it based on what I've learned, yet now I DID IT. If it sh-ts the bed, I own it. I already had it together when you mentioned prussian blue. Dang! you know I should have thought of that myself.  Well, it's running now. Pretty well; I'm proud of the full flow oil filter and the oil 'heater'. I'm working out some of the other powerplant details besides the engine. After all, an engine is useless unless you put it to use. 8)
So to respond to your point, Some of know exactly what a Lister(oid) is. The fact that it would fail is not a suprise, but the fact is, I can work on it, and enjoy that work. Then it can be put to work and tested.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

rocket

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2006, 01:41:44 AM »
while i strongly agree with guy that you will not get any magical savings in fuel running a lister cs i disagree about how easy they are to work on. a naturally asperated diesel will achive somewhere around 36%, be it your old vw rabbit, your mercedes 240d or your chinese changfa their efficiencies are about the same. add a good turbo, intercooler, propane injector... then you can see increases.. otherwise its all pretty relative.

as for working on the lister cs... oh my goodness! the lister cs is the picture of simplicity. if one undoes two nuts you can remove the rocker assembly for the valves. four more nuts and you can remove the head and cylinder. two more nuts and you can remove the piston. bad rings, bad cylinder, bad piston... replace the parts and reassemble.... i think a normally intelligent 10 year old can take the engine apart and put it back together. alot of the work to be done on the engine is pretty simple.. most parts just replace and reassemble. i love the lister because as guy says it is cheap to operate,

i do not believe it would raise the price significantly for india to produce a higher quality listeroid. my ashwamegh 12/2 had nice castings, most everything was of very acceptable quality. i am pleased with my engine. i stripped it, cleaned it a little, put it back together and expect good long useful life. i also know that if any part fails they are easily replaced. i am not going to kill myself messing with it, just buy some parts and swap them. how much more could it cost to make the engines 99% instead of 90%? i dont think its as much as people think.

my sons mercedes 300d takes 12 hours according to the book to swap a head gasket. i know i can swap the listers in 10 minutes. so in my opionion the engine is simple enough for a child to fix. it is cheap and easy to replace defective parts.

Ironworks

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2006, 02:19:08 AM »
I used to work on motorcycle engines.  I always used prussian blue...you cant go wrong.  I have to admit....I have never seen anyone polish a crank while it was still in the cases.  Some of that grit is going to find its way to the bearings no matter how may times you pressure spray it.  Thats going to take its toll on the bearings at some point.  Nice post Guy, I also envy Hotater.  I live out in the country but I still see houses, and a plume of pollution from a nearby city. I cant imagine what it must be like to not see telephone polls, houses. citys....must be nice.

rpg52

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2006, 04:40:50 AM »
I have no illusions about my listeroid being more fuel efficient than other engines.  The reason I got it was that it is a relatively low cost, QUIET way to generate power that I could repair myself.  Plus, its' fun!   ;D  It gives me something to smile about in my declining years.  As long as I keep my fingers out of spinning machinery, that sounds like a dream to me.   8)
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Ulysses

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2006, 05:57:28 AM »
Great post Guy,

    Some things are universal with all engines. I have worked on some of the largest marine diesels, and yes, their tolerances are just as tight as any other high quality engine.

    For an engine to be reliable, the basics must be there. Time spent doing the best you are able to make sure the bearing fit is good will pay off.

    I agree with Shipchief though when faced with the idea of hand fitting. I have never done it. In a marine work environment for example, we typically have a small number of people getting a lot of work done. There is no time to do things this way and therefore to even cultivate such skills. Precision sub-assemblies and routine replacement of them is the order of the day.

    An unhurried hobbyist's approach is what is required, and that is certainly an acquired thing.

    I have worked on cars as a hobby for many years. My work is sound but my approach is often very different from that of a professional mechanic. I have made them laugh at how I do things, because it is often inefficient, and slow.

    These engines are simple ones but apparently built indifferently. It is very difficult to put precision into a device that lacks it. Some will be driven to do so, some will not. Can't blame either person.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2006, 06:54:44 AM by Bruce H »
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GuyFawkes

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2006, 12:04:59 PM »

    I agree with Shipchief though when faced with the idea of hand fitting. I have never done it. In a marine work environment for example, we typically have a small number of people getting a lot of work done. There is no time to do things this way and therefore to even cultivate such skills. Precision sub-assemblies and routine replacement of them is the order of the day.

Y' know, sometimes things in real life happen that cause you to look at a few things fresh, that's happening right now with me, so anyway, I posted that, read shipchiefs reply and thought "oh no, two peoples separated by a common language, hope it doesn't come across like a self appointed expert preaching" and then this morning read the rest of the replies.

I guess I was really lucky, I learned most of this stuff because the people who taught me weren't just a generation older, they really were old farts, but knew their stuff, for example the guy who taught be hydraulics after I'd learned the basics helped to design the gun stabilisation systems for battleships (he once told me that the most important thing he could tell me was "you can say anything you like to your boss, as long as you're not right, that's the one sin he won't forgive") and so on, so my apprenticeship was very old fashioned even when I was getting it.

Looking back I realise that due to things like war shortages (both wars) and generally being in bum fuck nowhere these guys had plenty of real experience where the "it's broken, get a new one from stores" attitude meant you stayed put, marooned...  shit just HAD to be fixable, on site, without any fancy factory tools, if it wasn't then maybe you died as a result.

Looking back I also realised that I picked up the attitude that machinery has to degrade gradually with plenty of warning, not do what modern stuff does and throw a hissy fit and die 20 seconds later leaving you there going what the....

I'm realising, looking at myself, that as much as I cursed the job while doing it (I quit when the bottom finally dropped out of it about 15 years ago and PR bunnies could earn more than me) the thing I didn't realise was part of the deal with gaining all this knowledge and experience is you get to pass it on, and apprenticeships have long since disappeared now, so basically most of this stuff is going to die with me, and I think that causes some subconcious pressure in me to get on here and bang on about something or other.

I've moaned elsewhere in the past that book learning (engineering) by itself is a pure waste of time, and that when these skills are gone, they are gone... two examples.

A major iron / steel foundry . smelt in the midlands of the UK, about 15/20 years ago, there was this guy who'se job it was do decide when to pour the melt into the ingots, and as many of you will know the more precisely you can do this at the right temperature, the better the quality of the product, and this guy had been doing it for 20 years.

So, they come along with mergers and acquisitions and so on, and management invests bloody millions of pounds in computerising this process, and the day they turn the system on is the day they sack this guy.

Well they have problems, the quality of the pour is way below what this guy was achieving, and worse still it varied from pour to pour, so they got the technicians who designed this kit back in and you can imagine the pressure everyone was under, after about three weeks (and money lost hand over fist on every pour) they have improved matters somewhat, and made QC less variable, but it still isn't as good as when matey did it.

So someone decides to call matey back in and ask him how he did it, it cost a wedge but he agreed, now Sheffield wasn't just a steel town, it was also a glass town, and just down the road from the steel mill there was a glass maker, and this glass maker used to make a certain sort of blue glass, and our steel fella used to look at the melt through a rod of this blue glass held in his fist, so to anyone else it looks like he is squinting through his hand to shield his eyes, and the instant the visible colour changed he poured.

Next story is old clive, he used to work the propeller shaft lathe, had done since he was an apprentice on that same lathe when it was new, now he's something in his sixties, new management have taken over and decide to sack all the old duffers before they get too many years in to save the pension scheme bills, so they sack old clive, but what nobody realises is that as that lathe has worn over 40 years, old clive got better and better, and when they sacked him nobody could get good enough work out of the lathe, so they spent nearly 6  million on a new one, meanwhile the polish shipyards had poached the work anyway and the first of many successive liquidations and buyouts started, each of which leaving a smaller and smaller number of staff, meanwhile "the hulk" which was an 70 or 80 foot wooden hull built by the apprentices back in the day still languished opposite, despite 40 years of weathering and numerous attempts to burn it out, it continues to outlive the dock where it was made.

so, that's the problem, there isn't anywhere to go to learn this stuff any more, if you're lucky you can come somewhere like this where there are a few people who have done it, maybe one of them lives close enough to show you, but if not they can talk you through it and you can learn it by trial and error, because if you don't it will be gone forever, and then you'll be where those old noys who taught me were, where shit just HAD to be fixable, on site, without any fancy factory tools, if it wasn't then maybe you died as a result.

we aren't going to get a torpedo up our ass because our shit doesn't work, but lack of potable water will kill you just as surely, or perhaps lack of power for the radio transmitter or computer and packet radio, or lack of properly cooked food, or lack of the power to turn a lathe or spark a welding rod.

tell you what we do have now that apprentices of old did not, digital cameras, movie and still, and a global instant and essentially free communications medium, if hotater knows a wrinkle I don't he might as well be next door to me, because he can photograph that sucker and take dimensions and sit at the keyboard and bash out a "How to fo it to it"

but the bottom line is we all have to have the basics off pat, a bearing is a bearing is a bearing, and an (lube) oil film is an oil film is an oil film, and when you scale that bearing by a factor of four you don't scale the oil film, it don't work that way, and "clean enough to eat off" isn't clean enough for a lube oil system, and the only thing that is "good enough" is the best you can reasonably make it.

emerals said something about a 70 year old genuine 6/1 that requires a minimal service, pay up front and cry once, he's right, but you can pay in work and attention to detail too, it's like the barter system with your motor, throw money or throw labour at it, then you get something that will work YOU into the ground, even if you're only 25 now, and THAT is priceless.

the skills you'll learn from your listeroids will never be obsolete or useless or inapplicable, the mastery you achieve over machinery and more importantly supply chains of spares will never be obsolete, and it will never be worth less than it is today in this age of "just in time" shipments and built in redundancy and "it's buggered, get a new one from stores"

hey, here's a business plan for you.

India is real cheap, you can fly there for a month and have change out of what it would cost you to live that month in the west.

So fly to india, get your very own listeroid, and spend a month hands on apprenticeship style building your very own listeroid so it is as good as a genuine lister, then go back home with skills and and engine that will both last more than a human lifetime if you pass them on.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Ulysses

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2006, 05:30:20 PM »
 Guy,

    You are a fortunate man to have had the training early on that you did.

    The world has certainly changed a great deal over the years. I too have seen some things like the ones you describe and have had to marvel sometimes at the lack of true "progress".

    Several years ago I was assisting on board during an emergency drydocking of a ship in Baltimore MD. One of the huge roller bearings supporting the rudder stock had failed and badly damaged the shaft. Another one was located, but required machining to make it fit. The stock was duly set up in a giant lathe at the shipyard, and then ruined by a ten dollar an hour yard employee. He was blamed enthusiastically by the dozen or so management types clustered around. The sad fact is, his proper role would have been to have been the one looking over the shoulder of the skilled man actually doing the cutting.  Where were the skilled men? Long gone. They had tired of being repeatedly laid off and found something else to do.

    The skills you speak of are not dead yet, but latent in the work environment of most people today. I Guess the point I was trying to make was that these skills are not normally in use when It comes to replacing bearings in the "modern" engines that most of us work on because if they are undamaged, the journals and shells are accurate. I am sure that many here have excellent fabrication skills, and will find a way to do what needs to be done.

    The listeroids themselves. I do not have my engine yet. They tell me that It is scheduled to arrive in May. Today I was ruminating on the quality issues, and how to tackle them. As I said before, It can be difficult to inject quality into something that may not possess it. I liken this concept to what I have found in the course of rebuilding my house over the years. The carpentry work itself was not that bad, but the house is over one hundred years old and has settled, and was built seven inches out of square.
These things have made the job much more difficut than if the dimensions were correct and everything level.

    Faced with the mechanical equivalent of this, I would gladly "look over your shoulder" any day. :)
   
« Last Edit: March 07, 2006, 12:43:49 PM by Bruce H »
Powerline 24/2 in a million pieces

Doug

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2006, 07:03:41 PM »
You get out what you put into a job.
Sadly in my trade there are a lot of younge people who don't want the bull work of pulling cable and feel the tried and tested old electromechanical systems of the old days have nothing to teach them and are little value.

Myself I'm not that old, but I learned from the old men in that narrow window of time when the new technology was still comming in and the old men and machines had respect. To the utter shock of the "Kids" (in paticular the 120 pound girlies) I can make dusty crude looking machinery hum and do things they only know how to get electronics to do. This doesn't earn me any respect, perhaps a wink and chuckle from the truely old men left now who fart nickel dust but that about it. But when something old or odd brakes and the walking text books can do nothing but throw money at a problem, I get to make smart guys look stupid.

:P 

I talk about things here the groupe probably never heard of in my quest for the wholy home syncronous converter. Take the peice of this old technology and that combines with a little creative wiring and stationary engine, add a solar collector, and gassifier... Who knows what  else, these  old technologies work perhaps not with the gee wizz factor of modern equipment but they can be built and repaired in the feild, configuered in ways that no one thought of for home use before and they are affordable.

My last comment is on an old Clayton 8 ton electric trolley I service. My guess is it was built in the 40s and still runs the rails where I work. Its a treat for me to go up and inspect the old girl and run the rails in the now quiet upper country of Creighton mine. The rest of the track sections have gone diesel the smelly old German Duetz kind and I hate the racket. The diesels replace the new electronic remote control trolleys that didn't stand the test of time. But the old Clayton(aka the lead sled for the 4 tonsof batteries on it)) that wasn't modifed or modernized or scrapped still hums along nicely quietly. And provided no bean counter or smart guy trying to change things shows up I bet I can keep it running for a decade more as long as batteries hold up.
I love riding my train.....


Doug

solarguy

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2006, 08:49:02 PM »
I don't know how I ever got along without the internet.

I grew up on a farm in very rural Iowa.  My dad had a degree in industrial art.  So he taught at school (to keep the farm afloat) and we used old obsolete equipment to keep the cash flow positive, mostly.  You can learn a lot holding the flashlight if you pay attention and shut up for five minutes.

In my little universe growing up, I though all 14 year olds learned how to arc weld and run an oxy-acet. rig.  Everybody knows you have to squirt a little oil on that exposed roller chain or bad things happen.  You quickly learn that there's a happy medium between too tight and too loose.  If your fifty dollar junker motorcylcle fouls a plug, you figure out that the spare plugs from the old chevy have a seat to electrode length that's the same as your Yamaha.

My classmates thought I was wacky to overhaul an old '62 40 horse VW.  I was so poor I had to use a bathroom scale pushed against a breaker bar of X inches length and do the arithmetic instead of having a real torque wrench.  That was back in the 70's and that car got 40 mpg.  I drove it for years until my insurace company politely informed me they don't insure antique automobiles.  The best small car GM sells today doesn't do that well in fuel economy or servicability.

So the point of my wandering rant is this: Let's stick together come hell or high water.  I am confident there is a bunch of stuff still to learn, and plenty of guys willing to throw their two bits in to help out the other guy.  I can't tell you how much I value a resource like this group.  These kinds of skills are getting VERY rare.  The last construction site I worked on, they were all cheap/new flunkies.  If the electricity went out, they didn't have the diagnostic skills to plug a radio in and work their way up the circuit till they found the problem.  They literally didn't know what to do except call the electrician.  The one "supervisor" was smart enough to go flip some breakers, but that was it.

Now, are there going to be some differences of opinion among our group?  Sure, in fact I hope so.  The occasional shouting match, probably.  But at the end of the day, we can all have a beer and laugh about it.  We, as a group, are still eight times smarter than the average modern urbanite.

Finest finest regards,

troy

Copybell

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2006, 09:10:52 PM »
A wonderful post!!
Omega brand 6/1
Fuking brand 6/1
Satyajeet brand 20/1
Mini Petter

Stan

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2006, 12:15:13 AM »
I only got 33 years out of my '72 VW, course it was a Super Beatle. ???
Stan

oldnslow

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2006, 09:01:42 PM »
A great thread. Just watching the expressions of novice people watching it run...priceless. Now, they might think it runs on magic. Who am I to wreck their dream?
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 05:44:04 AM »
   My sons look at the Listeroid genset in the garage and think I'm deranged.
I start it up for them, yet just a few weeks ago they saw it scattered all over the floor. They think I should have bought a Yanmar diesel genset or something. I still see the awe in their voices; that I know how the whole thing works. That I handled every part and added my own improvements. This project has taken at least a year, and I still have more to do with it.
  They have dreams for the coming century, I'm playing around with technology from the last one. I tell them that the Industrial revolution formed the basis for our current and future society, and there is much that is being lost that should be maintained.
  Out of two step sons and two sons, Three are now men. I just loved the process. Not boys anymore. They see how the world works and are finding their places. They are starting to know what questions to ask. That's a real good start. I now have more faith in the future. I don't talk as much at family gatherings now, I'm not trying to prove myself; the younger men do that.
  When my older son was five I set up a pretty good sized H.O. electric train board, and he played with me. I just kept pre-socialising him with little bits of history, engineering, how things work etc. kind of a mini school for one student. He never even tangled the thread on the crane car...It paid off well. He's a surveyor with an eye to hanging his shingle some day.
Now the Lister is my civil engineering project. I don't have a student, but I field alot of questions when the sons come by to visit. I take input from them now. They are men (young) and need to be listened too. And debated. (It's great)
I made a few good screwups putting the Listeroid genset together. That's to be expected when I try to improve something before I try it the standard way first. I'm changing the engine mount frame to a more conventional, and heavier style, and it tames the vibration better. The motorguard filter got here the other day (toilet paper bypass filter) I got it from a listing on Amazon dot com; it's a painter's air filter ($58 delivered) and has plastic parts to hold the roll that might not like the higher oil temps I'll be running now that I have oil running thru a heat exchanger on the cooling water outlet. I'll make some metal replacements eventually, and convince myself it was cheaper than the $130 version for engines.
Oh, I've been rambling. Must be the wine.
I had fun fixing the Listeroid sand trap, and burned myself out on it just as I got it running. Good thing or it would have sat on the garage floor for a year. I'm hot on my homebuilt airplane project now. One decade and still not flying. I got alot done this week. I know I'll slump again, and drift to another project...I've got plenty. I imagine most of you Do It Yourselfer's have also.
  I've been sticking with this forum though, because I like the attitude.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

oldnslow

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Re: Conservation of Energy and human dreams.
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 08:13:46 PM »
Right on, Scott. My two boys are 5 and 7. Projects take exceptionally long now because I am not single with lots of cash like the old days. But the boys are full of wonder. They will learn all the old tech and high tech early on, by my side. I have trains too. As they break out into their own, they will be standing on the foundations of those things like we did, only a little higher.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.