Lister Engine Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
July 25, 2014, 04:01:12 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Welcome to the ALL NEW Lister Engine Forum - just like the old one, only somewhere else...

Photo gallery - www.listerenginegallery.com
71557 Posts in 5757 Topics by 3430 Members
Latest Member: paulvmax
* Home Help Search Login Register
+  Lister Engine Forum
|-+  Lister Engines
| |-+  Listeroid Engines
| | |-+  Injection pump and priming question
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Injection pump and priming question  (Read 2500 times)
sarawnw
Newbie
*
Posts: 28


View Profile
« on: February 08, 2008, 03:02:48 pm »

Hi

Never Posted before, just a reader

 I have a Field Marshall 12/2 listeriod that I can't get running.  The problem appears to be lack of fuel since the injector pumps are not "creaking" or buzzing as typical.  The engine did start with the fuel left from the "tear in" testing conducted in India at the factory.  I know what the injectors should sound like from this brief running of the engine.  During the disassembly and cleaning as per UtterPower CD,  I flushed the fuel lines of all fuel using compressed air and kerosene.  I left the injector pumps alone since I did not want to get into that until absolutely necessary. This includes injector pump cam shaft since the engine was clean for the most part. After reassembly, there is lots of compression, oil pump works great, better than when I received it. 

On to the specifics to the problem and questions

I am using the red diesel fuel so a difference can be seen between the india fuel and the new fuel.  The original factory fuel tank is full of fuel and in original factory location,  red fuel flows slowly out of the fuel filter bleeder screw,   also out of the banjo fittings that are attached the IP casing when loosened up.  Taking the injector fuel line off the top of the IP and removing the IP nut and spring, I lifted up the "valve piece" as per the priming procedure.  Old fuel , then air bubble and then red fuel flowed slowly from the IP.  Both IP's worked the same way.  Replacing the IP valve piece, spring and nut, then turning the fly wheels with the start handle, very small drop pushes up out of the top of the IP.  Both IP's operate the same.  Is this normal? I should have looked at this before the cleaning but who knew?  I would expect a squirt to shoot out of the top of the IP. There is a very small crack heard but not nearly as load as originally heard. 

Other factors that may be at work, I live in New York State and it is winter here currently.  I replaced the original fuel filter for the smaller rocky mountain power source filter from Eric since I will be using SVO and wanted faster change over between dino and SVO.

So what did I do wrong?  Any suggestions, comments,  questions or jokes would greatly be appreciated. 

Thank you in advance for a great forum and any help that you can provide.

Sara
Logged
xyzer
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 988



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 04:01:23 pm »

Hotaters post

Quote from: hotater



"Here's all I know about it-------
_______________________
We've all done it, and we've have had success at it, but we've probably done it 'differently'.

Let's talk about the 'spill timing' of the injector pump tappet.

I've had problems in the past with the tappet itself and had to make a new one at about 6000 hours. The symptoms of that were SO weird it took weeks to track it down to the tappet which had become 'self-adjusting' through worn out thread that would jump back and forth. I'll write that up separately.

Here's how Ive *finally* learned to do it.

"EXPERIENCE" Recognizing a mistake when you make it again.

It's handy to have a fuel supply shut-off with in reach. Also have a bucket and a pile of rags or paper towels to fill it with once they're soaked with fuel. Bleeding the fuel system is about as messy as bleeding a hog.

My parts book doesn't have the nomenclature of the fuel pump parts. I'm going to use 'metering valve', 'spring' and 'cap' for the three parts that comes off when loosened at the top. The 'spring' can be an escape artist.

Fuel lines have residual 'talcum' in them that prevents 'wetting' immediately. That's where the little bubbles come from. Fill a length of fuel hose with fuel and 'waller it around' (Southern descriptive term of twisting, turning, and flexing) Cap the ends with screws or thumbs. Slap it around some and allow the fuel to 'pre-wet' the line.

SET-UP--

From hard experience, FIRST check and then re-check and then *certify* the cam is in time with the engine. Don't assume the Indians did it right. And don't assume *you* did either!
Watch the intake tappet..it should start to lift at 5 deg. before TDC. Thats' about an inch BTDC on the rim of most 6-1 flywheels.

For this discussion I'm going to assume the engine is set up to run with oil in the crankcase, gib keys tight and flywheels 'rung' for soundness AND marked for Top Dead Center (TDC) with something easy to see.
Mark TDC on the outer AND inner rim of the flywheel so you know where it is when it's otherwise out of sight.

Measure the circumference of the flywheel and divide by 18. that's 20 degrees. Measure and mark 20 BEFORE TDC on the fly wheel. The mark will be to the 'right' of the TDC mark.
I use the throttle pivot bolt head as a reference point because it's close and handy and seems 'natural'. It's also the most dangerous one place on a Listeroid....it's a finger trap that will complicate your life. Watch out.

I use metal stamps to mark TDC and injector timing mark once I *know* it was right. I STRONGLY suggest using metal marking paint or other heavy duty, but not permanent marks to start with. It's astounding how easy it is to screw this job up!

GETTING STARTED--
Take the cap, spring and metering valve off the top of the fuel pump and loosen the banjo. Turn on the fuel and thump the lines until the fuel pouring out of the banjo is bubble-free. Tighten the banjo bolt and turn off the fuel so you can clean up what missed the rags placed to catch it. (gravity has a 'windage factor' when it comes to fuel.)

Remove the metering valve and it's spring, but put the cap back on.  This is IMPORTANT.  Without the cap in the innards aren't lined up right.
Now there's probably a 'mound' of fuel sitting on top of the that cap. Wipe it off until there's just a puddle in the middle. With the exhaust valve lifted and the fuel turned off at the tank but the throttle bar 'on' (down), rotate the flywheel clockwise, slowly and watch that fuel puddle. The puddle is responding to a plunger in the pump that's run by the fuel pump tappet underneath, which is lifted by the cam lobe.
GET THIS STRAIGHT-- the cam lobe only comes around once every TWO revolutions. The cam is half speed of the crank.
Rotate until the fuel puddle rises up and stop. Where is the TDC mark?

If the TDC mark is to the *left* when the fuel wells up you are *advanced* That's good. We want it 20 degrees advanced. Time to fine tune it.

If the TDC mark is to the *right* it means it's retarded and the tappet should be lowered about six full turns and try it again. Get it roughly 'advanced' and then go on to the next step.

TAPPET ADJUSTMENTS--
The tappet head and lock nut are about 7/8" and can be a tipping point for claustaphobics. I've found two little six inch Crescent (style) wrenches that will open up that far and are a life saver!

Turn on the fuel and rock the flywheel to the left until the fuel wells up and overflows the valve cap to replenish the fuel supply for timing and then turn off the fuel supply again.

Now, with the TDC mark at about nine O'clock and the correct TDC is the one coming up, (give the engine several revolutions to be sure where you are).

The fuel in the top of the metering valve cap should be stable as the flywheel is SLOWLY moved clockwise, but suddenly *begin* to rise up just as the 20 BTDC mark gets to the index. It's easy to rock the flywheel back and forth through this spot and adjust the tappet to make it sho-nuff right. It's MUCH easier to lower the tappet to make adjustments to it. It's hard to keep track of where you are when doing it, though. Expect to do a lot of flywheel turning. When the tappet is in the best position to adjust it the danged counterweights are in the way!

IMPORTANT--
The tappet CHANGES when the locking nut is tightened. BE sure the final timing check is with the locking nut tightened.

TESTING--

Now that the timing is set it's time to see how it changes...and it can.

Turn on the fuel supply, wrap a rag around the fuel pump and crank the engine through a dozen 'firing' strokes, but with the valve still lifted, and watch the top of the pump. There'll probably be a few bubbles at first then it'll settle down to making a mess with nothing but fuel. SLowly rotate the flywheel around and check the fuel spill in relation to the timing mark again. Still good?
Good.

FINISH--

Re-install the metering valve and it's spring and tighten the cap. Be sure all surfaces are clean before tightening. Rotate the engine through several times with the fuel valve 'on'. It should squirt fuel and a few bubbles at first, but clear up after half a dozen firings.
Now attach the high pressure line at the bottom but leave the top undone from the injector. Line everything up so the bottom is tight in the final position but the top is about a quarter inch from the injector.

Here's the place where an energetic kid is really handy...as long as you don't have to feed him.

Crank the engine until fuel spurts from the end of the high pressure line. At first (just after the coronary starts, usually), there'll be bubbles in the fuel. Rap the line with something to break them loose faster and keep turning (or urging on the urchin) until the spurt is clear fuel.

WHILE STILL TURNING, tighten the top connector to the fuel injector. You should hear the odd mettalic cricket of the injector firing after about no more than more four turns of the crank.

IF you still have the energy to release the valve lifter after the third 'tink' you should be rewarded with smoke and the SWEETEST noise....

If not---- Just stop and try to figure out where YOU went wrong.

Cam timing is the FIRST step in trouble-shooting!!!!

If you hear the injector AND you have compression AND the engine doesn't start. The TIMING is off. PERIOD.
 
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,"

All I can add  is make sure the rack is full open in the above directions!
Dave
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 04:04:14 pm by xyzer » Logged

Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA
aqmxv
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 271


Duty Now for the Future


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 04:36:59 pm »

Yes, that one definitely makes hotater's greatest-hits list.
Logged

6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen
sarawnw
Newbie
*
Posts: 28


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 06:27:02 pm »

Thank you Dave

I'll have some thing to do this weekend. 

sara
Logged
sarawnw
Newbie
*
Posts: 28


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 07:48:30 pm »

Hi Jens

The amount of fuel that comes out of the top of the IP is small and does not shoot up like standard car fuel injector system. The fuel pushes up some and drops over the edge of the high pressure line fitting at the top of the IP.  It really doesn't matter how fast you spin the fly wheel.  If I spin it fast, its hard to see a small burst of fuel, if there is one Tongue

Does amount of fuel coming out if the IP sound right?  and yes the fuel lever is on.
I did not want to bleed the high pressure lines until I knew the IP was working right first. 
The best diet I know is to crank over this engine Grin

thank you for your interest and help

sara
Logged
lendusaquid
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 353



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 11:24:11 pm »

Very little fuel will come out of the ip. I suggest you continue to tighten up the hp line to the ip ,clear the line of air, reconnect to the injector and listen for the clunk. 
Logged

listeroidsusa1
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 285


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2008, 03:48:02 am »

If your engine has the braided steel flexible lines junk them and get some good American fuel line. Grind the ferules off of the end fittings and you'll have a hose barb on the banjos that is reuseable. The braided lines cause nothing but grief. Our fuel causes them to swell internally, choking off the fuel, many times gradually over time so that the inclination is that something else is wrong. If you've got the flexible braided lines you WILL have problems with them.
Logged
Shadow
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 81


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2008, 05:04:13 am »

Hi Jens

The amount of fuel that comes out of the top of the IP is small and does not shoot up like standard car fuel injector system. The fuel pushes up some and drops over the edge of the high pressure line fitting at the top of the IP.  It really doesn't matter how fast you spin the fly wheel.  If I spin it fast, its hard to see a small burst of fuel, if there is one Tongue

Does amount of fuel coming out if the IP sound right?  and yes the fuel lever is on.
I did not want to bleed the high pressure lines until I knew the IP was working right first. 
The best diet I know is to crank over this engine Grin

thank you for your interest and help

sara
It sounds like youre almost there.There will not be much fuel coming out of the pump. Close that one and move onto the next. I've found the one at the injector sometimes needs to be opened and closed 2 or three times before the air is gone enough to get the injector 'creaking'
Logged
cujet
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 733


Lister power rules!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2008, 12:33:38 pm »

In my case, I used an outboard boat engine gas tank with the squeeze bulb in the fuel line. I was able to prime the filter assy and lines right up to the injection pumps with just a couple of squeezes. I then loosened the "B" nut on the injector itself and cranked the engine over while squeezing the bulb like crazy. It primed in a couple of minutes. Been great ever since.

Chris
Logged

The only shortage on planet earth is common sense
biobill
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 409

'riods make good houseguests if fed right


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2008, 01:38:36 pm »

Quote from: sarawnw
Taking the injector fuel line off the top of the IP and removing the IP nut and spring, I lifted up the "valve piece" as per the priming procedure.  Old fuel , then air bubble and then red fuel flowed slowly from the IP.  Both IP's worked the same way.  Replacing the IP valve piece, spring and nut, then turning the fly wheels with the start handle, very small drop pushes up out of the top of the IP.  Both IP's operate the same.  Is this normal?
  With that valve out and the pump in the the correct position, the fuel should come out fairly rapidly. I'm wondering if you may have some fuel gelling/filter restriction going on. Where in NY are you? Here in the lower Adirondacks, it's been months since I could get away with using untreated red diesel.    Bill
Logged

Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw
dieseldave
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 294


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2008, 07:18:32 pm »

 
  All I did was loosen fittings starting at the fuel filter and worked my way to the injector. Cranked,heard the 'creak',Hit the decompression lever,and off it went! Cool

   Now the real problem! I dont know how people on this site manage to get 2 wrenches in that space to adjust pump timing,unless they got thin wrenches that are bent to a certain angle. so this is what I have decided to do:

    I am going to remove the pump and advance the the timing to far ahead deliberately. Then I am going to install shims to lift the pump back up,so that timing is set back.

    I will then be able to remove or replace shims until timing is properly set. Grin

    This is much easier than trying to get in there with wrenches! Huh
Logged
Stan
Kimberley, BC
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2664


Found in Kimberley BC


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2008, 07:36:55 pm »

Chris...were you talking about something like this?



Stan
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 07:38:40 pm by Stan » Logged

Isn't it strange that people are happy to adopt epithets they would fight to the death to throw off had they been imposed?
Doug
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3386


Why don't pictures ever work for me?


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 12:47:09 am »

I found the Duetz dealer had banjo fittings that you could easily adapt or you can replace the works with a #2 or #4 JIC fittings.

All the banjo bolts and hoses can be converted to JIC very easy.
Logged

It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken
sarawnw
Newbie
*
Posts: 28


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2008, 02:42:27 am »

Hi All,

Good news,  both IP's creak or tink as load as before.  what a sound to behold.  thank you all for your help Grin

The engine puffed white smoke when I closed the exhaust valve and still cranking on the handle.  Being in upstate NY and the temperatures below freezing,  I didn't get the engne started.  The engine is in an unheated, uninsulated barn, sound familiar Wink

I tried heating the injectors with a propane torch so they were warm to t he touch,  without success.   

BioBill,   I think you might have this problem solved,  please tell us how you start a riod in environments were  H2O prefers to be a solid Grin

Should I start a new post for this


thank you all again for your help

sara
Logged
biobill
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 409

'riods make good houseguests if fed right


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2008, 03:26:56 am »

Sara,
  Glow plugs.  Don't know if your twin has CO valves but more likely there are plugs with large square heads filling the holes on the back side of the head (opposite the intake and exhaust ports). These can be machined to accept a glowplug which positions it right in the injector stream. If the fuel is liquid enough to pump, it WILL fire. You might find ready to go glow plug assemblies. I'll PM a possibility. In my opinion it's nice to have unmodified plugs to put back in when the weather gets warm so as not to interfere with the injection pattern.   Bill
Logged

Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.12 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!