Priorities

[biobill]

is everyone OK with this?     less than 2 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnq6cD5jk1Q

[Doug]

Without know how much a day cost I already thought to my self I wonder how much good that money could do for your country instead.

But the world doesn't work that way.

[mike90045]

is everyone OK with this?     less than 2 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnq6cD5jk1Q

Odd, it was 4 minutes for me, guess it's a west coast thing ?

On the other hand, What is being added up in the cost.   I can see extra expenses for flying food and fuel over, and building up camps.   But payroll is payroll, and haz duty pay was not that much more when I was in. Small arms ammo is dirt cheap, but the large caliber stuff is a bit pricey.  Extra maintainance costs for the air missions.   I wonder what the real cost bump over what is already being paid actually is.

[sid]

cheap at any price// better there than here//we are still paying for 9/11/ i wonder what that really cost us..sid

[mobile_bob]

Sid:

amen to that brother!

the cost in dollars is worth every friggin cent,
the cost in lives is another story, and i have no idea how to reconcile that, save
for treating our servicepeople with the utmost in respect....

something we were not so good at after the vietnam war.

bob g

[sid]

10/4///sid

[rmchambers]

I don't think the cost in $$ is worth every friggin cent.  Especially when all those $$ are being printed up by the fed or borrowed and added on to the national debt.

What the hell is a trillion dollars anyway? I can't get my mind around that big of a number - and there's many trillions of $$ debt.

Saddam was no threat to the US.  hell, he was our boy until he got ideas above his station.  The tribes/sects over there have been fighting and killing each other for centuries and unless they all get killed they will continue doing it.  If you've got that volatile of a population you're going to have trouble.

Look what happened in Yugoslavia - when ole Josip Tito was alive he kept them all in line or snuffed them out.  Once he died you had thousands and thousands of deaths due to ethnic fighting/cleansing whatever.

Bottom line is we should figure out some energy independence here, and leave the whole friggin middle east to their own devices.  If they want to sell us oil, fine, if not, we will have to figure something else out.

My kids are young but I'll be damned if I'd let either of them get drafted and shipped over to that shithole to be blown up or shot at for what?  for oil. 

You don't spread democracy with a gun you spread it by example.

It just makes me sad that sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/dads/mothers/uncles etc are getting killed over there and the whole pretense for going over there was bullshit.

If there was a check box on my tax form that said "None of my tax may be spent on military items" I'd check it in a heartbeat.

RC

[sid]

do not worry// we have enough brave men to take care of you/sid

[Stan]

RC here's how I used to "teach" how to imagine how big, big numbers are.

Pretend a silver dollar (or a loonie) is 1mm thick. (its close enough for illustrating this analogy)
Lay a thousand  of them on edge, flat sides together,   you have $1000 and it is 1 meter long
a MILLION dollars worth of them is 1000 x 1000 which is 1 Kilometer long  (the rough distance along the business strip in Cranbrook)
a BILLION dollars worth of them is 1 million x 1000 which is 1000 Kilometers long  (the rough distance from Cranbrook to Vancouver BC along highway #3)
a TRILLION dollars worth of them is 1 billion x1000 which is 1 million kilometers long. (slightly more than 25 times around the world at the equator)

(I'm really tired today and not thinking clearly but I think this is right, some of you more mathematically inclined can weigh in on this.... you get the idea anyway)  There's a really big difference between 1 billion and 1 trillion.

Disclaimer....does not apply in the UK. Maybe you guys can come up with a similar analogy.
Stan

[rcavictim]

RC here's how I used to "teach" how to imagine how big, big numbers are.

Pretend a silver dollar (or a loonie) is 1mm thick. (its close enough for illustrating this analogy)
Lay a thousand  of them on edge, flat sides together,   you have $1000 and it is 1 meter long
a MILLION dollars worth of them is 1000 x 1000 which is 1 Kilometer long  (the rough distance along the business strip in Cranbrook)
a BILLION dollars worth of them is 1 million x 1000 which is 1000 Kilometers long  (the rough distance from Cranbrook to Vancouver BC along highway #3)
a TRILLION dollars worth of them is 1 billion x1000 which is 1 million kilometers long. (slightly more than 25 times around the world at the equator)

(I'm really tired today and not thinking clearly but I think this is right, some of you more mathematically inclined can weigh in on this.... you get the idea anyway)  There's a really big difference between 1 billion and 1 trillion.

Disclaimer....does not apply in the UK. Maybe you guys can come up with a similar analogy.
Stan

That was very well put Stan!  Question.  How do you keep people from stealing the coins no longer in view as you stack them?   

[rmchambers]

I had to edit my post because I screwed up on the big numbers.

9.2 trillion - our current debt would be 9.2 million km's which would get us back and forth to the moon 23,900 times or so.. it's still too big to comprehend.

It's a lot of money no matter how you stack it.

[mobile_bob]

aside from stackin silver dollars, or pinchin pennies....

even if for oil, and maybe especially for oil
the war is worth ever friggin cent!

but we know better than that, now don't we
we know that oil is a small part of why we are in that war.

we talk about leading the call of democracy by example, how can we do so
when we turn our backs on the people of the world who are less fortunate than us
that are victimized by a cruel dictator? not just a few, but hundreds of thousands if not millions.

if we have learned anything from history, america will always come to the aid (eventually) to those
in need,
maybe a bit quicker if they happen to live in an area that will become destabilized if we wait, maybe in
an area where destabilization would jeopardize our energy flow, and certainly when the area happens
to also harbor those that would seek to destoy us by whatever means available.

you think it is bad now,, just thank God for GWB that he is president and not I!

if it were up to me, i would have 3 times the ground forces there, and march border to border
flushing out ever friggin one of them terrorists, those that support them, those that feed them, and those
that even looked funny.

there would be no or very little press allowed, and water board interrogation would be an olympic event!

yes it may be the root of a recession here before it is over, (but we were due for one anyway)
and recession is a bit uncomfortable, but far easier to accept than seeing another 911, or the loss of over half our energy.

or having to look oneself in the mirror while some crackpot lunatic dictator and his son's seek out, butcher, mame, rape and kill
even one more man, woman or child.

millions/billions/trillions are numbers that are hard for most to understand, and rightfully so
but in reality that is the numbers that countries deal in on a daily basis

just as we deal in 20's 50's and 100's

i don't like paying for insurance either, but i can get it
governments pay for it with larger premiums and with their sons and daughters.

some of us complain vehemently about the monitary cost of the war, all the while there
are those that volunteer to go and fight this ungodly task. is it so terrible that we bear
the weight of some debt? i would gladly pay the taxes needed to support this effort,
far easier to do so than stand up and take a bullet for the team.

thank god for those servicepeople one and all, for that matter thank god for all servicemen
those that are active and those who have fought for our country no matter whether or not i agree'd with
the premise.

i don't expect that to make sense to all of you, maybe not many of you
but that is the reality

and of course i too wish it were different
bob g

[rmchambers]

The pretense for going over there in the first place was proven to be a sham.

When the troops hit the ground what were the first places secured?  oil plants and the ministry of oil building.  Oil isn't a small part if why we are there it's a HUGE part.

As for removing brutal dictators from power:

What about Omar Al-Bashir (Sudan) he's been party to the most oppressive and brutally vicious slaughters of our time.  It's ongoing and people are dying every day.  No oil in Sudan though so you don't see much about that on the news.

What about the guy out in Myannmar? their policy of going into neighboring countries, occupying, and killing any dissenters (and who wouldn't dissent) has been going on for over 15 years.  No reason to go over there though.

What about the king of Saudi Arabia?  talk about an opressive regime - get out of line ? chop of your head, etc.  Can't say anything about those guys either.. why?  oil and the fact that they wouldn't even be in power if the US didn't prop them up.

So lets not even try and say the Iraq visit was about removing dictators from power because thats not true.  The only reason Saddam had to go was he used to be on the US payroll and could probably have embarrassed us. 

Our one supposed ally in that part of the world - you know, the one that spies on us, the one who's citizen is the head of our department of homeland security, the one who you can't criticize at all for anything lest ye be branded an anti-semite.  The only reason GW is rattling sabers at Iran is because his masters in Israel want that country blasted back to the stone age.  Israel has an army, they have weapons (mostly what we've sold or given them) they can defend themselves.  Iran is not a threat to us, and that pissant Armedinjehad or whatever it is is a joke.

I think that history will look back on the GWB 8 years not as the greatest president this country ever had but one of the worst.

I would like to think that this country will be able to offer more opportunities to my kids than it did to me, that's most parents wish for I think.  The reality is that I don't think this will be the case.  At least not in the near future.  We are in for a rocky ride and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg now.

Interesting discussion though and I'm glad we are able to have it. Couldn't be talking like this in China or Saudi Arabia - well not without risking a nasty accident.

RC

[biobill]

cheap at any price// better there than here//we are still paying for 9/11/ i wonder what that really cost us..sid

amen to that brother!
the cost in dollars is worth every friggin cent,

Not sure I understand guys. The cost of what is worth every cent?

 A foothold in an oil producing nation?              The way I was brought up, that's simply stealing

 A show of force to prevent the petrodollar from becoming the petroeuro?            Economically troubling to be sure for the fat cats

 Maintaining "order" in a nation undergoing civil war?                 Yeah right

 The economic boost (for some) that a wartime economy brings?         The "trickle down" hasn't dripped on me

 Or, since 9/11 was mentioned, is it protection from "terrorism"?           I think we can all agree that they did not do 9/11 and I cannot think of a better way of supporting terrorism (both its  goals and it's ranks) than invading a soverign nation under false pretenses with very transparent goals. What can we expect the mentality of some kid to be who watched his sister die from "collateral damage". Would anyone not feel inclined to join the ranks of the "freedom fighters"   

[sid]

some times  you have to stand up to the high school bully/most people follow and only a very few have the courage to stand up to him... some times you have too //thanks to our military because this is wrtten in english..it could have been russian.german or chinese//sid