Author Topic: Lister Running on Natural Gas  (Read 13005 times)

cfuller

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Lister Running on Natural Gas
« on: March 02, 2006, 02:15:16 PM »
Would like to know If you can run a Lister clone 16/1 on natural gas. If so how. I HAVE FREE NATURAL GAS .

pigseye

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2006, 04:45:12 PM »
Pardon this off topic question, how do you get free natural gas?


Halfnuts

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2006, 04:52:15 PM »
Maybe pull cfuller's finger?   ;)

Halfnuts

Halfnuts

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2006, 05:09:51 PM »
Ok, enough kidding around.  Short answer is "No."  It's not practical for a compression ignition engine.  Much easier to use a spark-ignition engine that is already set up for propane fuel.  The oilfield engines that run off of wellhead gas are spark-ignition engines. 
Check out http://www.arrowengine.com/cseries.htm for an example.

Halfnuts

Joe

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 02:49:39 AM »
To pursue this further… what is the equivalent of a CS Lister in a spark engine? That is to say longevity, slow speed, reliable, available…oh yes… must also be a chick magnet…. I know there are original Listers…but which one?   What is involved with a natural gas conversion on a Lister D or some such?
Is a small Chevy/Dodge 4 banger at 1800 rpm and direct drive viable?
If we start from scratch what are the best alternatives for a natural gas (methane) fueled generator?

Joe
 

Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

Doug

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 03:10:19 AM »
Maybe if you converted a GM 90 to spark ignition and lowered the compression ratio. I know this is done with diesel engines to run on producer gas.....

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2006, 06:29:12 AM »
yes the lister can run on natural gas, but only in dual fuel mode.

there will still have to be some diesel injected to initiate the combustion cycle, as natural gas has too high of an octane rating to fire in a diesel engine. it is good that this is so because unless you direct injected it at the proper time it would detonate.

there are two theories of operation here

theory one:  if natural gas is admitted into the intake stream, and is ignited on the combustion stroke the tendancy would be for the engine to gain rpm, the govenor would taper back the amount of diesel injected to stabilize rpm, up until sufficient natural gas is entering the engine and the govenor cuts back sufficiently  to fall under the pilot needs to initiate combustion.

theory two:  this is where a natural gas/propane carb is installed to deliver the gaseous fuel, and another govenor is used to tailor the fuel delivered.

do a web search on dual fuel operation.

also it should be noted that there are associated problems with flame front travel on larger engines, smaller bore engines are more tolerant.

i would like to know of those that use propane injectors on their listeroids, when injecting propane, does the engine rpm rise? does the fuel rack retreat when propane is injected?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Joe

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2006, 01:00:27 PM »
I have been in pursuit of a serious backup generator for a long time and came across the CS Listeroids.  After reading and digesting everything I could I bought a 6/1 with an ST5 head.  It was and is everything I had wanted and more.

My house is heated with oil and I burn a good amount of wood to keep the energy costs down.  The diesel fit my plans perfectly, until this February when things changed very quickly.

We will shortly have access to free natural gas as long as we install about 1200 feet of gas line.  You can see how this dramatically changes things.
Now my pursuit leans me to a system that can take advantage of the primary fuel that will heat the house and be as reliable/simple as the Listeroid.

Is there anyone that has practical experience along these lines…?

cfuller and I need to talk….

Joe

 

Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

Doug

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 07:45:21 PM »
I also have an unlimmited suply of gas, but my doctor tells me it diet and life style related......

Doug ( I had to say it lol )

binnie

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2006, 07:55:54 PM »
Doug, I smelled that one coming !
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

listeroidsusa

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2006, 10:15:53 PM »
The original Lister CS type diesel engine was derived from a spark ignition engine. It would be an interesting proposition to take a CS and revert it back to gas fuel. Perhaps take a DI piston with the chamber in the piston, along with a CS head, to further lower the compression ratio, and with the precombustion chamber plug drilled for a spark plug. The cylinder could also be spaced out with thicker gaskets to lower the compression, or a spacer plate made to fit between the cylinder and head. The newer mower engines have electronic ignition which only requires a magnet to operate. Seems doable to me........Wouldn't cost much either. A trip mag could also be set up using the injection pump cam. The most expensive item would be the natural gas carburetor.

Mike Montieth
Listeroids/USA

Doug

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2006, 03:16:01 AM »
I think you would be better off staring with a DI head and drilling it out to accept a spark plug. Reduce the compression ratio with shims or sheet copper. This has been done before. I can't find the document but in the 80's the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN printed ("wood gas as engine fuel" or something) a document on producer gas for stationary diesel engines. Among the sources of material the document drew from were several studdies done in Sweden and Finland where DI trucks, tractors and generating sets were modified this way. I don't remeber all the details but I'm sure they said precup engines didn't adapt well.

Here's the bloody link!!!
Took me a while to find this enjoy, and would I ever like to look at that big low speed Duetz they speak of....

http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.asp?url_file=/docrep/t0512e/t0512e00.htm

Doug
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 03:58:06 AM by Doug »

Joe

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2006, 12:30:35 PM »
Thanks Doug,
A really great link…lots of good reading to do here…talk about wood….geez…

It seems from my initial search it was the Lister “L” that gave birth to the CS series...having started out as a Petrol engine and then beefed up to run as a diesel.

Any of you guys across the pond have an opinion on this... that you’d like to share?

Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

Joe

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2006, 12:55:55 PM »

Another thought…if a bone stock “typical” Listeroid can be converted to run on  Natural Gas by bolting on a number of  albeit comparatively pricey parts what are the chances of it meeting EPA standards as such?  This would have to be one solid clean running chunk of machinery…

Can a DI and an ID piston be swapped out…taking into account bore/stroke/pin diameters?

If a COV plug can be machined up to take a glow plug…how about a spark plug? 

Would the injector hole in the head be a better place for a spark plug adapter?

Using the injector pump cam to fire a spark has about 10 different ways that can be done…none of which would seem to load the cam nearly what the pump would.

There has to be a Gas carb that could be fitted up…on to search the Garretson site…

Joe

Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

GuyFawkes

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Re: Lister Running on Natural Gas
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2006, 02:44:27 PM »
Thanks Doug,
A really great link…lots of good reading to do here…talk about wood….geez…

It seems from my initial search it was the Lister “L” that gave birth to the CS series...having started out as a Petrol engine and then beefed up to run as a diesel.

Any of you guys across the pond have an opinion on this... that you’d like to share?

Joe


of course it _can_ be done, but should it?

for starters your 6 bhp diesel will end up around a 3.5 bhp petrol / lpg / lng motor.

unless you make a real botch modification just to prove the obvious, that it can be done, you are going to have to source a suitable 4.5" three ring (two compression, one scraper) piston, make a new con rod to fit, rebalance the crank and flywheels, make a new camshaft, modify the cylinder head extensively, etceteras.

far far far easier to buy one of these and use that as a starting point.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LISTER-D-SPEC-28DH-2HP-at1000RPM_W0QQitemZ7609529207QQcategoryZ58177QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.