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Author Topic: Blended Waste Oil  (Read 17046 times)

rl71459

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Blended Waste Oil
« on: January 24, 2008, 04:20:37 AM »
Hello everyone

Ive been doing some testing of blended fuels (oils). I had purchased a DIY diesel genset with a ThermoKing C201 (Isuzu) and a ST12 chinese genhead.

When I first got it running I had some trouble with the engine.... Ran some injector cleaner thru it and it has been running great ever since.
I need to thank Mobile Bob for his help he provided early on.

Anyway... I've run it on a few different blended fuels. I intend to run it on straight wvo and or waste petroleum oil by setting it up with heated tank,
filters, injector lines......

I started trying blended oils after hearing about it here and other site's and had been haveing good results. The blending I've done so far has been using
RUG (regular unleaded gas) for a thinning agent. I have used SVO, WVO, Motor Oil, WMO, Waste Machine Lube and Coolant Oil... All was filtered before
and after blending.

All have worked good until tonight! I mixed up a batch that I thought was the same as the previous batch (Waste Lube Oil) Tonight very shortly after
I started the run on the blend then engine began running very poorly. At first I thought I had some excessive loads that where causeing trouble, so I
disconnected all load and the problem continued  :o, So I switched it back to Diesel and it appears to be back to normal now.

Due to the disappointment I shut down for the night  :( I will get back at it again tomorrow. If I figure it out I will let you know.

Rob


« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 05:10:27 AM by rl71459 »

mobile_bob

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2008, 06:21:43 AM »
Rob:

as a suggestion

start on pure diesel and bring it up to temp

then you might stick with a 50/50 mix, and i would not use gasoline as the thinner
but rather diesel

keep the load up to near capacity if possible and keep the coolant temps up to around 195-205 F

shut down on pure diesel, to purge the system and clear the injectors

i don't think the pure motor oil is a good idea, i think you will get too much carbon buildup that will result in
stuck rings and scored cylinders, burnt pistons , burnt valves etc.
i don't like the use of gasoline because it will begin to burn to early in the injector tip causing some carbon buildup and
overheating of the tips.

i commend you on your efforts, but maybe a bit more conservative approach will keep you from having issues that might damage
a good motor.

its one thing to damage a single cylinder listeroid, but quite another to damage a 4 cylinder isuzu
one is acceptable risk the other is just criminal :)

in my opinion :)

the c201 is a sweet little motor isn't it?
how much load have you got it to pull, can it pull the full 12 kwatt ?
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2008, 01:46:55 PM »
Jens

All I have been doing so far is running the raw oil (Machine Tool Oil) thru a filter/pump system I put together
it has a small gear pump a 2 spin on oil filters (Fram PH8A) I pump it from the 55 gallon drum into a 2.5 gal
container, Then I add RUG to thin it too a viscosity similar to Diesel Fuel, I use a DIY viscosity comparison
tool (A cup with a fill line (approx 1 cup) and a weep hole) First I test Straight Diesel, which is currently testing
1 drop per second (I test it for 30 second intervals). Once I have a batch that tests OK I then filter it again using
the same rig for about an hour.

I then retest viscosity to insure any additional mixing has not changed the tested viscosity.

I understand this is not the best (hehe, I really have been shocked at my success) method, but it has been succesfully working on all oils Ive tried so far and I have done this at least 10 times so far.
(I must have been lucky)

The Oil is from a known source, (My Work) although this is a different barrel (I have 3 at this time). This oil looks new, nice and clean. I understand that it doesnt mean its good, just an observation.

Rob

rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 02:18:34 PM »
Bob

I will try to answer in order asked.

I normally prewarm the engine as you suggest, Although I did not bring it to full temp (190 ish) this time as I usualy do, I was rushing it somewhat last night.

I will try the Diesel Blending method you described and see what happens, Thanks
Should I disregard the viscosity and just mix it 50/50 as you suggest?

Last night I had a hard time pulling any load until I went back to Diesel and then I shut it down and went in and watched the news with my wife.

I have been running Straight Diesel before shutdown to purge the system.

As you probably read in my response to Jens, this was not Motor Oil it was Machine Lube (Mobile Products).

I agree, I should be more conservitive, I have been taking alot of risks, but my success so far has been an
inspiration to keep pushing it. Maybe my luck is running out :(

You are right the C-201 is a sweet engine... Runs real nice, when fed properly. I really am not trying to kill it.
but it is my test bed also, I will try to control myself!

Im not shure of the total load I have driven so far, But I do know it is more than I can run with my 10K gas
Screamer.

Before I forget, Thank You again for youre help you gave early on in this project it helped alot!

Well hopefully my experimenting has not damaged my engine... Time will tell... It always does!

Rob

I still want a lister!







rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 05:43:06 PM »
Jens

I agree about the Oil Filter... The reason I thought I could get away with it is because I know the source
of the oil, the machines it came from have a filtration system that continuously filters to 5 micron or less.

I do understand that the oil being stored can allow moisture contamination, The barrel it was in was sealed
and was very near full.

Unfortunetly these barrels where kept in a storage building for some time.... Hopefully nobody fouled them.

My engine also has a dual filter arrangement, Im told the final filter is a 2 micron, I realize that this can lead
to premature filter plugging, but it should still protect the IP.

It is possible with all the different oils Ive used that a incompatability issue could "Blind" the filters. I will know
if this is the case before I'm done.

I plan to try another run tonight on straight diesel, To prove if I have damaged the engine or IP. Till then I'm
keeping my fingers crossed.

If I can get to the parts store I will replace the filters today.

The oil is not synthetic.

Rob

vt woodchuck

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 06:10:01 PM »
Hi guys,
 I read your post reguarding blending wmo. As a retired OO running CATS and Cummins I know mixing gas with your fuel is not a good thing. It's bad for seals, pumps, and injectors. If you need to thin out your oil use kerosene or fuel oil. It's cheaper also. Back in the late 70's early 80's,  Ruan Trk. Leasing out of Des Moines, IA. created a fleet of trucks called Mega Trk. They were designed to have a Million Mile life span with little maintenance. It had a device that pulled out about 4oz of motor oil ( if I remember corr.) every so often and add it to the fuel tank. Then  it would take an equal amount of new oil from a onboard container and add it to the oil pan. They never changed the oil only the filters. The truck also had a self greasing system that greased everything but the u-joints. It even greased the fifth wheel.
Mike
Mike D.
1959-JD730 die., Dodge die.

rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 07:23:36 PM »
Hi Mike

The use of RUG was not something I came up with, It was a method I read about in a few different articles, and I also know a person who has been doing it with a mercedes benz for over 5 years and is still doing it today, He claims with no problems... (It's an old one like 1986)

Some of the articles claim that the mixing of RUG with vegtable oil creates a desireable chemistry change.... I dont know, nor am I defending the practice.

As far as the use of it with the machine lube oil I have, Well that falls under the heading of lets try it and see what happens, It had been working great up to now.

All that said... I certainly dont have a problem using kerosene or fuel oil and I will give it a try also. I like cheaper!

When using kerosene or fuel oil should I try to match Diesel viscosity or is there a certain percentage I should use?

All Comments and input are welcome!

Thank You
Rob

rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 08:09:32 PM »
I have more info on my fuel system, When asking (the NAPA guy) about my fuel filters I learned that the primary is 10 micron and the secondary is 6 micron.
They stock them both! I will get some spares so Im ready when I plug them up, maybe I have already.

They maybe ultralow micron (submicron ;)) now that Ive run every fluid known to mankind thru them!

Rob

vt woodchuck

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 10:23:32 PM »
Rob
Your loss of power maybe from a residue building up on the injector tip from incomplete burn causing it to dribble and lose power.  Changing back to diesel disolves it as well as increases combustion temps which burnes off the rest. I read on this forum or utterpower I don't remember which, that heating the wmo to 190o makes a big difference on being able to filter the oil as well as injecting it, and eliminate carbon build-up. My waste oil furnace has a preheater, If I don't waite for it to warm up, it will not atomize enough to burn correctly and gum the nozzle.
Reguarding diesel. I think Mobile Oil Co was the last oil co. to make a true refined diesel, and that was back in the 70's. What you get at the pumps now is straight #2 fuel heating oil. Premium fuel at the pumps  is a #2/kero blend. Years ago I hauled petro. products and when a customer wanted diesel we would blend it 70/30 with kero. in summer and 50/50 in winter. Straight #2 actually has more btu's then a blend. Tempature of the #2  also makes a difference. Heated fuel expands, so a gallon of fuel in summer weighs less than a gallon of fuel in winter. My truck always had more power in cooler temps. because of cooler denser air and fuel. The feds I heard are investigating  crooked truckstop owners who are heating the fuel before the pump.
I hope this helps.
Mike
Mike D.
1959-JD730 die., Dodge die.

Doug

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 10:41:46 PM »
Modern fuel dispenser automaticaly temperature compensate.
Look for wet spot under the air eliminator under some pumps. This indicates an air pruge problem that might work against you at the pump for a few cents.

The actual weight of the fuels don't change with temperature in a compensated pump so you actulay get what you pay for ( a cold corrected gallon weighs about the same as a warm corrected gallon ). I guess a smart fellow could monkey with this but the need to realy know what they are doing.

Some guys I know were able to squeeze as much as 50-100 gallons of free fuel out of an empty tank truck thanks to the expansion shrink in the cold thing. You had to be realy good and consistent or you would get caught
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 10:43:39 PM by Doug »
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vt woodchuck

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 11:06:40 PM »
Hi Doug
My info on the heated fuel was based on an article Iread in the Turbo Deisel Registry in the last issue.
Mike
Mike D.
1959-JD730 die., Dodge die.

Doug

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 11:33:24 PM »
I haven't touched a gas pump in 15 years.

In those days electronic pumps were relatively new and I couldn't figuere out how to solve the problems let alone make them cheat.
Things change....

I would be more inclined to remove the PROM and make my own that cheats than to actualy try and defeat the software but heating fuel.

For a long time I would only buy fuel from a a mechanical clock fuel dispencer. But thats because I was mistrustful of the temperature compensating technology.

Don't ask me anything about VeederRoot, Tohiem, Bennet ect I purged all that crap with years of disuse.....

Off topic again:
Bump back  to waste oil
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 11:34:56 PM by Doug »
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SCOTT

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 12:00:15 AM »
fuel is sold by liquid volume, one calibrated gallon is exactly equal to all other calibrated gallons.  trying to arb fuel based on thermal expansion seems a fools game.  What would the station owner do, wait for a cold day to take delivery and then heat it up prior to pumping?  What happens in the summer, does he only take delivery at night when it is cooler, or better yet first thing in the morning so the fuel in the tanker is cold from the night before?  

the expansion rate has to be pretty low or there would be systems in place to calibrate for expansion at every step in the distribution system.

But all the above is moot because the unit you pay for is the unit you get, gallons not btu's.

which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?

back to waste oil anyone?  

it is appealing because it sounds like it may be eaiser to clean/filter up then veg oil...no crunchies in wmo, and the btu content is higher.  on the downside there is the engine life issue.  I am interested in results using heated (200 f+) vmo.  If blending is done only to reduce viscosity then heating may eliminate the need to blend.  as for final filter level, I would think anything 5 or better would be fine.  

In the comming weeks/ months I hope to do some experimenting with some lightly used (100 hrs from a boat) rotella t 15/40.  I also have the oil analysis reports so I will be able to tell the group exactly what is in the oil.  If time permits I would be willing to take measurenments of the top end pre and post wmo.  Any suggestions on a methodical testing procedure?

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

rl71459

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 12:10:00 AM »
Hi Everybody

Well... Im runnin on my genset as I type (diesel fuel) and all seems fine at this time, The engine runs and sounds as good as ever! ;D

I still have the old filters on it at this time. All is well again! What a relief! Now I need to figure out what is happening with my
wasteblend fuel.

For the moment I'm just happy the engine is OK, I will look into as much of the advise you good folks have givin as I have time and cash to.

Unfortunetly the "CASH" is always the regulator around here. Please continue to voice your thoughts and opinions, I do want to hear them.

I try to stay openminded about this stuff.... I'm no expert.

Once I reconfigure my approach I will let you know what direction I am going to persue.

Thank you all
Rob

Doug

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Re: Blended Waste Oil
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 01:05:47 AM »
fuel is sold by liquid volume, one calibrated gallon is exactly equal to all other calibrated gallons.  trying to arb fuel based on thermal expansion seems a fools game.  What would the station owner do, wait for a cold day to take delivery and then heat it up prior to pumping?  What happens in the summer, does he only take delivery at night when it is cooler, or better yet first thing in the morning so the fuel in the tanker is cold from the night before?  

the expansion rate has to be pretty low or there would be systems in place to calibrate for expansion at every step in the distribution system.

But all the above is moot because the unit you pay for is the unit you get, gallons not btu's.

which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?

back to waste oil anyone?  
Scott

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0829hotfuel0829.html

I have a Canadian Imperail gallon standard used for calibrating fuel pumps Stamped by weights and measures Canada for this purpose ( retired and expired because we use litres now )
If you promiss to be careful with it and return it I'll UPS it too you and you can measure in hot and cold to your hearts content.

And yes lets get back waste oil.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 01:07:40 AM by Doug »
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken