Author Topic: Cylinder Information  (Read 12003 times)

rleonard

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Cylinder Information
« on: January 22, 2008, 04:21:26 PM »
I learned a bit of information from my Amish Lister dealer friend yesterday that I thought I'd pass along.  We were discussing the 6-1 I am currently working on and the 16-2 engines regarding pistons, rings, and such

Please help fill in the blanks if you have improved information.  Maybe we can help someone here.

Later Lister 6-1's had chrome cylinders.  All had iron pistons and iron rings.
8-1, 7-1 air cooled, and 16-2 have iron cylinders and alloy pistons.  Either iron or chrome rings are used.
650 RPM engines had iron pistons, 850 RPM engined have alloy pistons (reduces recriprocating mass)

Heads will and have cracked just as mine did (see chasing leaks thread)  I have a source for Lister head repair by an experienced shop.  Unfortunately it is almost the same price as a new head, but may be an option.

Bob
Faster - Better - Cheaper  You can have any two, but not all three

Stan

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 04:35:53 PM »
I went through the same sort of research when deciding whether to keep Penelope's cylinder or not.  The "Listar D" process of applying chrome to the cylinder wall consisted of the standard electrolysis method, but just at the end of the process the current was briefly reversed.  This made the chrome fracture with millions of tiny cracks which don't affect the hardness or wear characteristics but the tiny cracks do trap oil improving the lubrication of the cylinder and the rings.

Oh yes, you can have a chrome cylinder with iron rings, or an iron cylinder with chrome rings but never chrome on chrome, or iron on iron.  Physics says chrome on chrome results in a too hard condition and the rings will never seat with predictable results, and iron on iron wears waay too fast.

There are listeroid chrome cylinders available but I don't know if they are Listar"d"'d.  ;D
Stan

listerdiesel

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2008, 05:38:06 PM »
There are various combinations of allowable fit, regarding bores and rings.

Cast Iron on Cast Iron is OK, Cast iron on Chrome is OK, Chrome on Chrome is OK for the top ring IIRC.

I have a drawing..... got to find it now!

Peter

Stan

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2008, 05:46:06 PM »
I stand corrected Peter....I know iron on iron is OK, but it does wear a lot faster than chrome/cast iron combinations.  Some of the Listeroids come cast iron cylinder liners with cast iron rings.  I suppose with the cast iron cylinder liners they are easy/cheap to replace.  Any moisture in a cast iron cylinder/cast iron rings combo without running for any length of time would be a disaster, spelled s-t-u-c-k  ??? 

Stan

mike90045

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 06:05:21 PM »
I learned a bit of information from my Amish Lister dealer friend

I suspect east coast is too far from me, but what's the dealers name/ph/web ?

Quinnf

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2008, 07:59:07 PM »
On that score, I think David Edgington said in his book that the 8/1 had the Listard liner with 4 iron rings and a chrome top ring.  Seemed odd to me, too.  Apparently the honing process for the chrome liner had to be done just so.  Said they used a dimond hone, so it wasn't only the electroplating current reversal that was used to score the chrome liners.

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Stan

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 08:40:44 PM »
Quin....I don't think the type of honing would make a big difference on a listard cylinder, those tiny cracks would be deep.  My knowledge of physics tells me that if it's only the top ring that's harder chrome, and therefore not "set in" it wouldn't make a great deal of difference in the operation of the piston.  As long as the rest of the rings wore in  were broken in properly, they would still seal to the cylinder wall enough to prevent all the problems of improper break in.  After all, the chrome isn't going to wear in, it's the job of the softer metal to do the wearing in, just like what a guy has to do by being psychologically accomodating in a marriage.  ;D
Stan
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 02:18:21 AM by Stan »

Quinnf

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 09:08:07 PM »
Many things about the technologies used in these engines surprises us who have come of age a lifetime after these engines were first conceived.  I suppose that's their charm.   :)   I'm only relating what the manufacturer did.  You're welcome to believe what you like.

Quinn
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 09:11:54 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Stan

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 03:40:57 PM »
Sorry Quinn...I didn't mean that the factory didn't hone the cylinder with a diamond hone, in fact they probably honed/machined them from the start because you can't assure a smooth cylinder using the electrolysis method.  You get tiny bumps and pits that have to be machined out somehow.  The tiny cracks from the listarD process would however remain despite honing/machining as they are very deep (relatively speaking) and their oil catching benefit would remain.

What I meant to say was that diamond honing won't get around the fact that you have to have one of the wear surfaces softer than the other (rings vs cyl wall) to break in properly.  Much in the same way that you have to introduce an abrasive when you are lapping valves, to wear the surfaces to mate together.

Without some initial wear between the cylinder wall and the ring surfaces, and chrome is near the top end or RC69,  you get blowby, high oil consumption, lots of ugly smoke and stuff dribbling out of the exhaust until the engine is properly broken in.  Do a search for this and you will find a discussion on this very topic some months ago.  Someone even suggested using an abrasive such as borax (they actually did it in the old days) to help this break in.  The problem with that is that the abrasive gets into everything, bearings, bushings etc. and really shortens engine life. Bad Dobby!

Use of modern synthetic oils is also bad during the break in period as it is too slippery and doesn't allow this "wear" to occur.  Heavy loads on the engine during break in  help "wear" helping break in.  These facts have also been discussed at length.

I wasn't doubting David Edington or yourself, just failed to make myself properly understood.
Stan

listerdiesel

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 04:05:56 PM »
I stand corrected Peter....I know iron on iron is OK, but it does wear a lot faster than chrome/cast iron combinations.  Some of the Listeroids come cast iron cylinder liners with cast iron rings.  I suppose with the cast iron cylinder liners they are easy/cheap to replace.  Any moisture in a cast iron cylinder/cast iron rings combo without running for any length of time would be a disaster, spelled s-t-u-c-k  ??? 
Stan

It is all relative. Wear rates on various combinations of materials are all quite low, it was just that the Listard/Chromard and other processes produced a combination that was a dgree lower again than the current best practice, and it was also resistant to moisture ingress etc.

Cast iron will rust the same as steel, but it doesn't stick quite as badly, and as the clearances were fairly generous, stuck pistons were not such a problem as they might have been.

The drawing I mentioned gives the listing of the main ring sizes and tolerances for the Lister water-cooled engines. I may have already posted it, just need to find where...

Peter

mobile_bob

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2008, 04:18:48 PM »
does anyone know if the listeroid liners are induction hardened?

i suspect they are, and if so they will compete with the chromed liner very well in lifespan

mack, detroit, cat, cummins etc all use induction hardened liners and many still have the crosshatch clearly visible after 500,000 miles

as a matter of fact a  mack endt liner is very thin (~1/8 inch) and as hard as glass, or nearly so
it will shatter with a hammer as if it were made of glass.

this chrome liner stuff was more likely a bold experment and nice marketing tool
and when you think about it, a far simpler process to manufacture than an induction hardened liner.

the more i learn about the original lister the more amazed at how it attained such a mythical status with folks today.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Quinnf

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2008, 04:22:12 PM »
I'll see if I can dig up the quote from the book, and maybe that will explain better what I'm getting at.  Something to the effect that the honing process was thought to be rather critical to holding oil.  That said, these engines were manufactured over many years, and ideas came and went, and techniques changed as suited the conditions of the market, the patent situation and the desires of whoever it was that was making the strategic decisions for the company.  

In the 1950s it sounds like increased competition from smaller lighter weight more modern engines was forcing Durslely to adopt a number of cost-saving strategies, like retooling the patterns for the head and cylinder to leave the head studs outside the casting to save on raw materials.  They also fitted an alloy piston to the  8/1 and replaced the CS valve with the now-familiar threaded plug.  Given the fact that chrome-lined cylinders, and especially the "Listard" treatment are not more universally used today, I wonder if maybe some of its appeal to the company might have had more to do with distinguishing their product from that of their competitors, rather than actually conferring a benefit in longevity.  The CS valve, too, wasn't adopted by the rest of the industry after the patents ran their course.  So was it really more of a marketing gimmick than a necessary part of the design?  It seems that other companies were able to make ag. diesels start in the cold without the CS valve.  

Though I haven't verified this, I expect that chrome plated cylinders were probably in existence before Lister began using them.  So how to protect the company's use of chrome?  With a patent.  So how do you patent something that is already in common use?  By innovation.  Someone might have noticed the effect of the brief reverse current on the surface of the chrome.  To one set of eyes, a crazed chrome finish might look like a bad part.  An optimist, though, might say something like, "The cracks will hold more oil."  And the patent attorney walking by the two might suddenly shout, "Bingo!"

I don't think there's any magic in the design, or any of the technologies used in these wonderful old engines.  Decisions were probably made for many reasons that might or might not make any sense to us who are so far removed from the context in which they were made.

For what it's worth.


Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Quinnf

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 04:25:40 PM »
Geez, Bob, I spend all that time crafting my sentences so carefully, and here you blow right past me and cut to the heart of the matter using fewer and smaller words than I am able to use, and you manage to say the same thing.  And you post while I'm still composing.  It's not fair.

I'm going back to the lab and mix up some chemicals.    :'(


Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

listerdiesel

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 04:50:26 PM »
Re the changes on the 8/1 over the 6/1:

The cast-in slots/recesses for the cylinder studs were more to cut drilling time down than saving material, when they were chucking our these engines in volume, anything to save time was a bonus, and it took a lot of time to accurately drill those four holes all the way down the casting.

The change-over valve went as the better spray from the injector, higher C/Ratio and other factors made it unnecessary. The use of the ali piston was reflected in the higher engine speed for the 8/1, although it probably absorbed more heat than the old cast iron one.

The plug in the cylinder head to replace the change-over valve weighed more than the valve itself, taken with the inner blanking piece.

Most of what was the 6/1 remained, testament to its longevity and good build quality.

Peter





biobill

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Re: Cylinder Information
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 04:55:10 PM »
Question....
  I stopped by Geno's last night and checked out his 195? 6/1 cylinder. The chrome bore looks similar to what I've seen in chainsaws and motorcycles. Not in bad shape but a perceptible ridge at the top.  On the bikes and saws, you never honed a plated cyl - at least not in my day. Anyone know if these are the same? Would be nice to eliminate the ridge though I suppose you could cut a few thou off the top and use another base gasket to keep it away from the top ring. To hone or not to hone???       Bill
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