Greetings from another new guy

[Ulysses]

     Hello everyone!

    I cannot describe how happy I was to see this forum operating. Thank you Bob (rocketboy) for posting the link on your site. I first saw a Lister in his article there. Since then I have been learning what I can online. I only wish that I had found this site sooner.

    I have ordered a 12/2 and a 10kw st head from Old Style Listers. This was several weeks ago. They claim to sell a good product but From what I have read here I realise that I probably should go over the engine very thoroughly when I get it. Frankly, some of the postings by a person now banned have alarmed me concerning what I may have gotten into. Finding the things that I should look for has been priceless already, and I thank all of you for your contributions.

    No matter.  last year I was discussing the restoration of cars with another owner at a show. He was very experienced. He liked my vehicle and spoke of getting one to redo. Then he sighed heavily at the prospect of yet another restoration. I responded that these things sometimes require a little naivete' or you would never get started. Whatever, I am going in with both feet.

[GuyFawkes]

lol, I once knew a bloke who used to restore barn finds, the more missing and rotted the better, he always sold them on when finished at enough profit to make a living out of it, but he was always sad to see them go...

"part of you huh?" I once said

"no", he said, "now I have to find a new one"

he was into the act of restoration, not the end product

steam and traction engine buffs are like that, and a lot of lister owners, they're never finished, cos if they were the game would be over.

[Ulysses]

      Yes Guy, I understand.

   I did not mean for my post to sound quite so dark. Whatever problems I may face, I look forward to solving them and making the engine my own in the process. I have found that even abused equipment that never had a great reputation to begin with can give excellent service if you fix it right and take care of it.

   Talk about rolling the stone up the hill, I have been working on Italian cars for 30 years as a hobby. Love them to death, but they can drive you nuts sometimes. What is wonderful about this site is the pool of knowlege that is here. I have the greatest respect for that as I am a small part of the same in other areas.

[jimmer]

Bruce,

You might want to check out "Old Style Listers" announcement page.

Hopefully it does not apply to you.

jim

[emerald]

All the Indian manufacturers tell you they take great care to ensure all casting sand has been removed before the engine is ran. I have yet to see one that even comes close. With a new oil filter, you will find nasties in there.

There are many other gotchas with them too, the old saying of buyer beware applies here....to the letter.

For the money you pay, its a low cost engine that when reworked by its owner, should last many years. I say should, because I am not impressed by the bearing quality in any of them. I rip em all out and replace them with high quality items.

Emerald

[Ulysses]

       Oh my....

    Thank you Jim for giving me a heads up. This will definitely affect me. The order is in and the check has cleared. This could end up disrupting my sense of inner harmony. I will have to discuss this with them to see what this problem actually means for their customers. At this point they may not even know. It sounds like a real disaster. I particularly noted the statement that this would have a serious effect on the company financially.

     Emerald, The problems over at Old Style Listers dovetails so well with what you said. The core sand problem is endemic. If I ever get my hands on one of these things I am reconciled to a complete teardown. The bearings sound like a wise retrofit as well. You do get what you pay for. With quality bearings, you are buying hours. Thinking of what could happen to the reciprocatng parts if the mains went out of compliance is more than enough for me.

[SHIPCHIEF]

Greetings and welcome to the group.
Your engine will probably have been 'test run', so you will probably have to polish the crank. Clearances will then be alittle on the loose side. The broiler foil in my kitchen is .001", and shim stock is available in brass and steel in various thicknesses, check the oldest rebuild shop in your area.
My center main jounal was undersize by .0015" when I got it smooth, I sure hope it is still round!
New bearings, some shims, and alot of time spent hand fitting. It's a skill, and when you've done it once it's yours for life  .
Have fun, don't work on it when your angry or in a hurry.
Scott E

[Ulysses]

      Shipchief;

    I had seen your moniker throughout the site and was curious as to what sort of ships it refers. I myself am a retired marine engineer.

    All the hand fitting required to repair the damage from the core sand makes me think that one would be better off just getting the major components as parts and assembling the thing yourself, like a kit.

    I wish that my grandfather was still here. He was an old time mechanic that would gleefuly discuss the leather relining of clutches and the art of repouring and scraping bearings. I still have the tools somewhere. Having spent most of my life around precision interchangable parts in engines this will requre some adjustment for me. The good thing is that the part loading is less than what I am accustomed to, so the tolerances should be less critical.

    If I get into a lot of hand fitting, one resource for me might be the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. This is located near me and I know a couple of guys in the shop where they make the parts for their locomotives.

    I know it might be asking a bit much, but are there undersized bearings available? If so, who has them? If the crank is really scuffed, It might be worthwhile to remachine it.

[solarguy]

George at www.utterpower.com has .010, .020 and .030 undersize shell bearings on the shelf and can get others, though at high cost due to shipping one little item.

No financial or other relationship, yada yada.

Finest regards,

troy

[GuyFawkes]

    I know it might be asking a bit much, but are there undersized bearings available? If so, who has them? If the crank is really scuffed, It might be worthwhile to remachine it.

if you can find out what grade of cast steel the crank is (take a nip out with a drill) you could always in extremis have the journals welded up and then turned back down.

if fitting shell big ends of mains by hand, ALWAYS use prussian blue to test fit the bearing, and ALWAYS use a micrometer to make sure you ground it round, emery tape soaked in diesel or kerosene will do, 50 "strokes" then turn the crack 30 degrees, then check fit and round every full turn.



http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?9421

[Ulysses]

     Thank you, all of you for your remarks.

     I am getting a little ahead of myself as It may be months before I even see the engine that I have ordered. I may never see it. Who the heck knows?

     The sequence of events concerning how I got to where I am went like this.

     1. Going to Rocketboy's site from a post in Boing Boing.
     2. Reading at sites that turned up on searches or links. 
     3. Began having dreams about one of these engines at night.
     4. Talking with the company that I went with. They claim to sell premium engines that do not need to be rebuilt on delivery. They also charge more for the engines than others. (Fair trade if true).
     5. Ordering the engine from this company.
     6. Finding a link that brought me here.
     
     I would have much preferred that #6 would have preceded #4.

     When people ask me technical questions about arcane or antique machines I always try to steer them to a club or owner's group. I was looking for you guys, believe me. The system works.


     Owner's groups are very powerful. An example that pops into my mind is the DeTomaso Pantera, a  1970's quasi-exotic with an Italian chassis and body with a ford V8 powering it midships. The car, as produced, was pretty neat but had many glaring faults, such as overheating. Owners got together, solved the problems one by one, vendors sprang up with manufactured upgrades based on these fixes, and today you can buy one of these cars in stock condition and buy the upgrades available on the market. Once done, you have a great and reliable car. Vendors listen to the groups because they can generate a lot of good or bad press.

     From what I have seen thus far, we are dealing with poor quality control requiring the blueprinting of the engine on delivery. This is fine if the product is honestly portrayed by the seller as such.


     To quote a great diesel instructor at the engineering school I attended years ago,

     "Out of spec engines do not wear in, they wear out".

[kpgv]

I had a friend that had a 72 Pantera...135mph @ 5800' elevation, 2 min. in traffic before BOILOVER.
The "network" idea has merit.

Kevin

[SHIPCHIEF]

Bruce H;
Yes, like many others on this post I am a marine engineer. I started as an engineering cadet in 1973, sailing in US flagged merchant marine steamships with MEBA contracts for engine room officers.
I shipped on tankers, freighters, and containerships, but now I'm a ferryboat engineer on Puget Sound. It happens when you decide to have kids, then feel responsible for them.
My diesel experience is with medium speed and high speed marine propulsion and auxilliary.
Oh, and I had a notorious Oldmobile 350 (it was alot better than the pundits say, by the way) and a Bedford GM 140 HP six in a 68 ft ferrocement sailboat, with a White Hercules 3 cyl driving a 12Kw Kato Kamag gen (all great). Talk about a crash course in 'vessel management'.
I ran a marine repair for a while, working on power and sail boats, before I got divorced.
I'm building an RV-8 kit plane, and powering it with a Mazda 13b rotary engine, which is the opposite of a Listeroid.
I should get my webpage together, and post my manic collection of mechanical interests.
Scott E

[Ulysses]

Hello Scott!

    While it is not that surprising to see marine people here it is a delight to meet others with such similar backgrounds.
    I started in the SIU in 1972. Went to the MEBA school in 1975 and graduated in 1978. I just retired (at 50) last summer. I worked mostly for liner companies such as Moore-MCormack, US Lines, Sea Land, and Navieras (NPR) I do not have to tell you about all the challenges such a career entails, or how difficult it can be to survive in such a rapidly shrinking industry. At the end of it, I guess that I am just thankful to be in one piece.

    As far as slow and medium speed experience goes I cut my teeth on the D6 and D9 vessels in the North Atlantic trade, and some time was spent on ECON's as well. Loved the work, although overhauling a V16 Daihatsu sometimes felt like it was my life's work!  Later, I went back to steam and ended my run working on old Lancer class vessels in the Carribean trade. (lot's closer to home, with kids and elderly family members). I was permanent 1st with Holt NPR when they went belly up a couple of years ago.

    What an interesting collection of interests you have. You must get a page up. I would like to do the same at some point but my computer skills are still, (maybe always) on the steep end of the learning curve. The Lister engines really intrigue me, and I look forward to working on one. I have built my own  car engines for years (some high performance) and put hundreds of thousands of miles on them collectively. I have confidence that no matter what shows up on my doorstep, I should be able to make something out of it. The collective knowlege here, however, makes that a certainty.

                                                                                                         Bruce