Proper oil changing in the single cylinder Lister

[rleonard]

This may seem overly elementary for many of you Lister experts, but this information may help someone.  After all, that is what this forum is all about.  I have not seen this mentioned before.

The crankcase design of the Lister singles has a bowl shaped area under the splash shield.  Draining the oil via the drain plug empties the sump, but leaves oil in this area.  This area has about a 1 inch depth and is about 2 inched below the splash shield.  Over time this area accumulates carbon and debris from the engine internals.  The splash shield prevents this oil from being agitated so the debris accumulates.  The only way out requires some disassembly.

Performing an oil change by removing the plug only only removes about 2/3rds of the oil.  This area in the crankcase remains dirty and full of oil.  Proper technique requires pulling the side plate, removing the splash shield and wiping the area in the crank case out.

Here are some pictures;




Note the braized washer on the retaining bolt for the splash shield



Bob

[Stan]

Tnx Bob....Interesting adaptation for a washer brazed on to the splash guard bolt.
Stan

[Quinnf]

Bob,

Those are great pics.  And they're the clearest ones I've seen of the splash tray.  A number of us were discussing the tray a while ago, its purpose, when it appeared, and once it was introduced was it included in engines until 1987?  The hollow dipper seems to have appeared, then disappeared in favor of the solid dipper.  Wonder if there was any relation between the hollow dipper and the splash plate.  David Edgington's book http://utterpower.com/lister_cs_story.htm didn't say anything at all about the tray, though a couple of drawings showed it.  Wonder if maybe the dipper, even used on edge, might have whipped so much oil out of the shallow upper sump that maybe it would run dry under certain conditions.  I really can't think of any other reason for the plate.  Your suggestion about sludge buildup is another possibility, but it seems to me the sluldge would end up in the lower sump where there's not so much agitation.

Quinn

[ronmar]

Quinn
   Does yor PS 6/1 have a splash plate?  Mine didn't come with one.  I could see it cutting down on wake splashing from the wake caused by the dipper as it swipes thru the oil of the upper sump.  The dipper slings the upper sump oil against the rear or camshaft end of the case, so I believe most of it will run down the sides and return to the upper sump, but some has to find it's way back to the lower sump and a wake could speed this process by pushing oil over the front lip and into the lower sump.

  I  have wondered how an oil pump failure would effect these things.  In the diagrams I have seen in some of the online copies of the original CS manuals, they show the oil level in the lower sump well below that of the upper sump.  About where the top of the front tip-out on the case is located.  the original CS's had a swing out plate there to check the oil level, so you couldn't fill them any higher than that anyway.  A pump failure would keep oil from being replaced in the upper sump and I believe the upper would eventually deplete as a little bit each revolution would be splashed forward and return to the lower sump. 

Since my PS engine dosn't have the swing plate/door on the sump tip-out, I fill mine up to the same level as the upper sump in case I experience any pump problems.

Ron

[BruceM]

Many of the single cylinder 'oids (like my 2002 Metro) don't have a lower sump, or a splash plate.

I added an oil sight tube with a magnetic float- and reed relays to sense low and high oil levels for auto safety shut downs.

I"ve had problems with oil level shut downs- seems at cold temperatures, at initial startup the oil level goes low, then shortly after goes high.  The going low on start makes sense, especially with cold oil and a gravity filter on the inspection door.  The going high baffles me... it doesn't happen until the engine has run for maybe 5 minutes.  I had to move both high and low sensors out further than I'd like, so I may revise my oil level sensing scheme, perhaps to an analog sensor so my Picaxe Lister monitor chip can then handle the variations from off, cold, warming, and hot. What a hassle!

There's some strange stuff going on re: oil levels and distribution that Lister once had probably figured out well, and our cottage industry Indian manufacturers have not, yet.

Bruce M

[listerdiesel]

You'll have to excuse my slowness of reply, I have had four attempts to get logged on today and each time the site has crashed without warning.

Very frustrating...

CS engines had a deeper sump built into the crankcase from engine No 2236 to 5863.

There is a page in the Changed Number Listing which gives details of the parts required to convert the earlier crankcase (Part No 5-1/B1) to the later crankcase (Part No 8-2-101) and the kit includes the baffle plate, (Part No 8-2-102)

At the same time, care should be taken that the later and longer oil dipper (Part No 8-4-13C) is subsequently used.

So, you can have a CS without the deeper sump.

Peter

[Quinnf]

Ron,

No, they're only to be found only in some English Listers.  I've never seen a 'roid with one.  And, yes, I agree about oil pump failure.  I keep the oil level on mine so that the dipper is about 1/3 to 1/2 immersed when at rest.  I, too, don't like or rely on that oil pump.  The pump is necessary if you have plain main bearings, as on an English engine, but the TRBs do fine with splash lubrication.  As I recall, George/Joel spec'ed the oil pump as an accommodation to so many users who wanted to add an oil filter to their 'roid.  The oil pump doesn't move much oil, but if all you're doing is filtering, not much flow is required. 

Peter, thank you for the information!

Quinn

[Quinnf]

Bob,

Just wondering if you'd mind posting the length of your dipper and the distance from the crankshaft pin, or bottom of the bearing cap if you've already reassembled it, to the bottom of the sump.  Peter indicates that your engine must have the deeper upper sump.  Since our Indian 'roids never were intended to have the baffle plate, they likely have the shallow upper sump. 

I think that would help us all understand better how the splash lubrication system was confgured.

[And Peter, when I logged on earlier I was greeted with a message saying "Server shutting down," after which I could not log on for some time.

Quinn

[listerdiesel]

The other point that got lost in one of the crashes, was that the Lister handbook set oil changes at 400hrs, and the gauze filter for the oil pump pickup had to be taken out at the same time and cleaned.

I do not know if the baffle plate was there to prevent excessive splashing or not, maybe with the deeper sump and greater capacitor they found it was a problem.

The gauze isn't far away from the trajectory of the dipper either, IIRC.

None of this applies to the twins BTW.

Peter
 

[Quinnf]

Peter,

Do you know if there is any association with the hollow dipper and the baffle plate?  One theory goes that the baffle plate might have been there to calm the flow of oil so the hollow dipper would have a more consistent medium to plow through.  In other words, the dipper might have been more effective at delivering oil to the rod bearing if the baffle plate acted to reduce chaos in the sump to some extent.

q.

[rleonard]

Bob,

Just wondering if you'd mind posting the length of your dipper and the distance from the crankshaft pin, or bottom of the bearing cap if you've already reassembled it, to the bottom of the sump.  Peter indicates that your engine must have the deeper upper sump.  Since our Indian 'roids never were intended to have the baffle plate, they likely have the shallow upper sump. 

I think that would help us all understand better how the splash lubrication system was confgured.

Quinn,
I hope to be assembling the engine tonight with it's fresh piston, rings, and crank bearing.  I'll snap a picture to show the relationship of the parts.

Bob

[Stan]

My Penelope's got the deep sump (1949 6/1) which is 4.75" deep(from the lip of the upper sump) and her dipper is 1.75" long.  The lower sump is filled from the "oil filler" which is just about the same level as the lip of the upper sump.  You are supposed to fill her to "within 1 in. of the top of the oil filler" according to the manual.  This would put the oil level inside just about 1" below the level of the lip of the upper sump.  You are then supposed to "remove brass plug near Tappets marked 'oil' and pour in 1/4 pint of oil" (when starting after an overhaul).  This will presumably fill the top sump.
Stan

[Tom]

Interesting, my roid of course does not have the deep sump, however the oil plug is there.

[rleonard]

I took some pictures of what I have and the orientation and placement of the parts.

First is the dipper.  It is solid and thinned down like a knife;

[/img]

Next is before adding oil.  There is about 1/2 inch between the bottom of the dipper and the crankcase bottom.

 [/img]

Added 4 quarts of oil to the top of the filler neck filled the main sump and the sump under the rod.



You can see that about 1 inch of the dipper is in the oil every turn of the crank.  It is hard to see the wetted area since the oil is clean.



Bob

[listerdiesel]

You are then supposed to "remove brass plug near Tappets marked 'oil' and pour in 1/4 pint of oil" (when starting after an overhaul).  This will presumably fill the top sump.
Stan

The reason for this extra oil is to flood the camshaft bearing with oil, which is located underneath that plug, and there is an oil hole leading down to the bush which you can see if you take the plug out and have a squint.

This is on all models of the CS engines, but not on the CD, CE, JP or FR.

Peter