Author Topic: AVA1 generator in UK  (Read 12475 times)

djrm

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AVA1 generator in UK
« on: January 13, 2008, 10:15:41 AM »
Greetings everybody,
I have just been introduced to this forum, my initial impression is very favorable. There are a lot of dedicated people on here.

This is my genset, a 1951 Petter AVA1 with an Alco alternator.


The large alternator is used for starting the set as well as for generating 230 volts 50 Hz.

I'm doing some tests on it to enable me to make it a stable backup power supply. I'll need to have better speed and voltage regulation for that. I want to make it into an automatic stop and start system too.

buickanddeere

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2008, 02:19:58 PM »
  I'm favorably impressed to see  a belt shield.

djrm

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 05:25:47 PM »
  I'm favorably impressed to see  a belt shield.
I got the genset from a farm where it had been languishing in a barn for many years. I have painted the trailer chassis, the alternator  brush cover, and the belt shield too although I nearly took it off and left it because it was quite rusty. The trailer is the chassis from an old caravan. It had no mudguards when I got it.

I have started to keep an account of some of the things I'm doing with it here: http://linux.djrm.dynamic-dns.net/blog/2008/01/13/petter-ava1-generator

Best regards, Dave.

Doug

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 07:22:44 PM »
This might be of interest

http://www.volvoxengineering.com/GensetsCompact.htm

If you look very closely at the Injection pump on his engine you will notice there is something different.
I don't know for sure what has been added but if I had to guess there is a Mico injection pump with a stopping solonoid added.
From what I have heard on your YouTube video it sounds like your Petter is running in the 1000-1200 rpm range.  Am I close?
The speeder spring and govener weights at that speed might be too sluggish to provide good speed regualtion. This is a problem I might also have to face with the DM10. My thoughts are a slightly weaker longer spring with more even tension will help. But this means removing the speeder spring and replacing it with a super soft one just to push out the rack against the govener arm and the new spring and adjuster will have to fabricated to pull on the govener arm.

Doug
And welcome Dave
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

djrm

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 09:06:11 PM »
Greetings Doug, thanks for the welcome.

The youtube video shows the genset operating at 37Hz output. The belt ratio is 1:1 and so the engine would have been running at 1110 rpm.

youtube AVA1 video link

The video was taken when I was making some adjustments to the governor, also the alternator was on load with both an electric fire and heavily charging the starter battery.

I have myself come to the conclusion that I may need to obtain a new weaker speeder spring but I have no idea about how to make one, the engine seems to regulate better at 1200 rpm than at 1500 rpm as I want it to.

Another possibility would be to fit a larger belt pulley onto the crankshaft and run the engine at a slower speed. I have made some tests at 1200 rpm but although the regulation is better it still isn't very good.

I expect that the only satisfactory solution will be to fit an electronic governor, this will also allow automatic stopping of the engine by removing the fuel supply when needed.

I have looked at the web pages you linked to but I haven't yet spotted the injector pump on the engine there.

Best regards, David.

Doug

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 10:11:40 PM »
Well Dave my site is out of date but my Ip looks exactly the same as yours witht the exception you have Bryce pump.

If I were you looking for some softer springs for the speeder I'd go to an Auto parts suply shop first and then look for some industrial supliers.

I can probably send you an assortment of springs based on the Bosche IP and Indian speeder but there is no garrenty that they are what you need.

There are two sets of springs on the AV1 govener. the internal spring set pulls the gov weights to the max speed possition. The external speeder spring on the Ip rack pushes the rack fully open. I don't think it would be wise or would offer any advantage by trying to change the tension or spring rate of the internal counter weight springs so I would leave them alone.

There is also an adjustment govener arm that you need to be careful off because you can slack things off to much and prevent the govener from fully closing the fuel rack and potentialy cause a run away. This adjustment is only to set up the rack so the govener linkages are set to fully open or close.

Bad picture
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=2974570
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listerdiesel

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 08:39:16 AM »
The alternator looks identical to a Lister Start-O-Matic unit, but they are 24V so probably this was specially made if it is definitely 12V?

Can't see if this is a Series I or Series II engine from the pictures, is the injector horizontal or at 45 Deg to the vertical?

I'll check the manual to see what options were available on the governor, most were variable speed.

Max speed was 2000rpm.

Peter

djrm

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 01:06:16 PM »
The plate on the alternator has this writing on it:
Alco Generator
Arthur Lyon & Co (Engineering) Ltd
London Stamford
M/C No 9545/2
Ref No 6062/1
Volts 230
Amps 27
rpm 1500
Hz 50


Unfortunately there is no mention of the DC specifications. I have sketched the internal connections, see below. I am using the dynamo, it makes 24 volts which I reduce with a big resistor for charging the 12 volt battery. 12 volts is used for starting the engine, I expect it should be 24 volts too.

If you have any diagrams of a SOM using an alternator like this please let me know. Tho SOM diagrams I have are wired quite differentely from the way mine is.

Link to alternator wiring sketch: http://linux.djrm.dynamic-dns.net/gallery2/18021-1/AC-DC-generator.jpg

The engine plate has:
Diesel Engine
Petter AVA1
3.5 HP
1200 rpm
No 802435

I haven't ever taken the cowling off the head and do not know if the injector is sloping, the enngine number given above may help you decide.

Best regards, Dave.

listerdiesel

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 04:52:00 PM »
I haven't ever taken the cowling off the head and do not know if the injector is sloping, the enngine number given above may help you decide.
Best regards, Dave.

The injector should be outside the cowling, hanging in the breeze someplace, it isn't buried in the cowlings.

The output of the alternator suggests it was part of a larger set at some time.

Start-O-Matic wiring and manuals is on our websites.

Peter

oliver90owner

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 05:17:36 PM »
djrm wrote: Unfortunately there is no mention of the DC specifications

If you supply details like machine serial number to Newage Engineering at Stamfod, they may well be able to supply information on the machine.  They made it.

Regards, RAB

Doug

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 11:29:50 PM »
http://linux.djrm.dynamic-dns.net/gallery2/General/Engines/PetterAVA1/P1000655.jpg.html

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterAV1.htm

Peter does the AVA1 have the intake and exust ports reversed on this head to the water cooled version or does this mean that Dave's engine is a series 2 because the injector is on the other side?
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listerdiesel

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2008, 11:56:06 AM »
Peter does the AVA1 have the intake and exust ports reversed on this head to the water cooled version or does this mean that Dave's engine is a series 2 because the injector is on the other side?

The AV series came in a variety of versions, see:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/petter2.htm

The main way to tell the two series apart is by the angle of the injector into the cylinder head. Series I had a horizontal injector (the cylinder head and piston sizes were taken from the Cub flat twin diesel) the later Series II had the injector angled down into the head at 45 degrees.

There are other detail differences, but thet is the main one that is easily identifiable.

The Cub engine details are at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/CubDiesel/CubMenu.htm

Looking at the photographs, I'd be tempted to say that it is a Series I engine, but we'll wait and see what comes back from a visual inspection!  ;)

Peter

listerdiesel

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2008, 12:06:27 PM »
Peter does the AVA1 have the intake and exust ports reversed on this head to the water cooled version or does this mean that Dave's engine is a series 2 because the injector is on the other side?

AFAIK the inlets and exhausts are on the same sides on both water and air-cooled versions.

In fact, I think everything is in roughly the same place on all the AV's, unless you have seen something I have missed?

Peter

Doug

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2008, 08:49:32 PM »
Dave is fairly sure the engine was built in 1951, this would mean series 2 if correct. 

I'm a bit confused here now by the fact on Daves AVA1 the injector apears to be opposite side or the injection pump. On your picture of the Series 1 AV1 ( water cooled so perhaps this makes them different ) the injector is directly above the injection pump.

Looking at the AVA2 series two in the picture below its not clear where the injector is but the intake and exhaust are on thee Injection pump side making space for the injector hard to see if it is directly above.
This is different from the PH, PJ( and the DM10 petteroid ).

When the change was made from series 1 to series 2 did the injector move to the other side of head as well as change angle?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 08:52:47 PM by Doug »
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listerdiesel

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Re: AVA1 generator in UK
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2008, 09:35:18 PM »
The position of the injection pump(s) the valves and the head ports seems to be fairly inconsistent.

The AVI has the injector above the pump as you stated, so we could assume that the pump is adjacent to the camshaft. and that picture on our website clearly shows the timing case bulge on that side:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterAV1.htm

The AV1 LAB engine at the farm shows the same configuration:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Caterpillar/AV1Lab1.htm

The AVB LAB engine has the later angled injector, and this is now round the other side of the block to the pump, which remains adjacent to the camshaft for obvious reasons.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Caterpillar/AVBLab1.htm

The AVA Series II have this arrangement as well:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterAVA1.htm

As does the PH series:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterPH1.htm

and the PHW:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/PetterData/PetterPHW1.htm

So, I think we can assume that ALL later engines after the Series I had their fuel pumps on the opposite side to the injector, that the fuel pump always stayed on the camshaft side of the engine and that the longer injection pipes didn't cause any problems for them.

Peter