Author Topic: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.  (Read 10111 times)

sb118

  • Biofuel Bandit
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« on: February 23, 2006, 05:23:13 PM »
Well i've finished the wallpadding in the shed to kill a lot of the noise from running the engine, i thought i'd give it a spin (just an excuse to play really, only bolted down to some pieces of 2x4 and no exhaust system fitted).

Oops.

To put it mildly, oops.

In fact i'll spell it out, i'm a total coughing idiot.

You start this engine by cranking a ratcheted handle, it will only pull the engine in one direction, and once the engine picks up speed the driveshaft runs faster than the handle and the ratchet just "freewheels" so you can pull the handle off for safety.

See that last word there? "Safety", i've just learned that it doesn't ALWAYS work that way, sometimes the handle won't slide off the drive shaft.... like i said, oops.

I crank, drop exhaust valve to fire engine, engine fails to start, repeat 10 times. One last time, then i'll sack it until i can put the engine on a few blocks to get it to a more accesable height.

Wish i'd waited. Really wish i'd waited. Really really .....  you get the idea.

Ok, i crank the engine, drop exhuast valve, engine coughs into life, i pull the starting handle off. Sorry, i try to pull of the starting handle, but don't. Either too slow, or it's got a bit of rough rust somewhere along the shaft which is catching.

The handle continues to spin as the engine reaches operating speed. Of one thousand, eight hundred revolutions per minute. And my leg is in the way. My shin to be exact. Oops.

On with the pics, wiefy took most of them after we'd packed my shin with packs of frozen chips and peas. (and she'd stopped laughing at me, i sound quite pathetic when i'm in pain)








Can you spot the slight difference between the legs?

I may be waiting until the engine is bolted to a solid concrete base before i start it again.

We have seen the enemy!



Worked out the problem, the cover for the starter has had a knock at some point and it's too close to the ratchet mechanism, forcing the pin to stay in the slot in the driveshaft. Another excuse to play with the lump hammer :D REVENGE! :D
First love - 1975 Lister SR1, gone to a better place (running a saw bench actually ;))

True love - unknown vintage CS6/1 with SOM flywheels

linkie to the project so far --- http://jestersltd.com/pics/index.php

Lister owners do it at 650 strokes a minute ;)

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1747
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2006, 06:37:44 PM »
Ouch! I'll share a similar, but not as disastrous. oops I made if you promise not to laugh. Being a new lister user I tried to jerk the crank handle off the shaft as soon as it fired. Well if you don't slide the handle straight off the shaft it will hang. So there I am with the nice heavy duty cast iron crank handle cocked on the end of the shaft spinning at 650 RPM. The way the engine was located I had to lean across the flywheel to flip the fuel off praying the handle does not fly off and hit me. Now I am sure to firmly hold the crank after it fires and carefully slide it straight off the shaft.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2006, 07:39:52 PM »
Guy's there's a 20 second video on my site (no sound) of me doing it properly, eg the way I was taught, eg THE ONLY WAY YOU EVER START A STATIONARY ENGINE.

a/ do ususal visual checks, fuel on etc
b/ decompressor engaged
c/ crank engine briskly THREE turns
d/ SLIDE HANDLE OFF SHAFT
e/ dis-engage decompressor

if it don't start on 3 turns you have issues, if required repeat.

don't matter what set up or design you have, sooner or later it will hang up, better it does that BEFORE you disengage the decompressor

sb118, consider yourself extremely lucky, could have been FAR worse.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Andre Blanchard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2006, 07:51:40 PM »
Added some steps.:)

a/ do ususal visual checks, fuel on etc
b/ decompressor engaged
 b.2/ put a few drops of oil on the engine shaft
 b.4/ rotate the crank backward to make sure the ratchet is working
c/ crank engine briskly THREE turns
d/ SLIDE HANDLE OFF SHAFT
e/ dis-engage decompressor


First thing I would do is put a block of maple in the lathe to fix that handle.
___________
Andre' B.
______________
Andre' B

trigzy

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
    • View Profile
    • High Tech Hicks
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2006, 08:10:36 PM »
Keeping in mind the only engine I have ever hand started is a Fairbanks-Morse Railroad speeder car motor, I REALLY like the idea of taking the handle of the crank before letting the compression go.....  I dont see the need to carry the engine through the compression stroke.

Sorry to hear about your injury....

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

jimmer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2006, 08:24:04 PM »
Here is what my documentation (GM90) says:

To start the engine -

Put the valve lifter (DE-compression lever) below the tappet head,
keeping the cut off hand lever in bottom position, turn the flywheel at a good speed,
remove the valve lifter & continue cranking firmly for a few turns, the engine will now start.

Works for me.

jim

hotater

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2006, 12:12:43 AM »
There's NO way my engine will start without following through the compression stroke with the handle engaged...  To remove the handle and then start is a no-go from the word go.

The only time I've been injured (not that bad) was from a mini-Petter handle coming off too soon and cracking the inside of my knee!  I'm VERY careful to keep the handle ON until the engine is running....of course I polished the bore and the shaft and made a new pawl in a new bore and fitted a solid brass handle in dual ball bearings, too.   I love to hear the click of the (hardened and ground) pawl as the engine comes to speed.  ;D

It's easy to test to be sure the handle comes off easy with the engine off.  Just put all the side thrust you can on the handle in about forty different ways and see if you can lock the handle on the shaft.  Mine FLIES off in any position. Moly grease helps the handle, the laundry guy hates it.   ::)

That's a NASTY bruise.  I'm betting that particular activity has been put in the same file as peeing on lawn mower spark plugs and electric fences, hasn't it.  The NEVER DO THAT AGAIN  file.    ;D
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2006, 12:34:22 AM »
Never Do Again? Like the first time I got so puking drunk I said "God please kill me now and I promise I'll never drink again"? Or the third time?
My 25/2 came with 2 start handles; I thought that was nice of them. Well, it turns out you have to be one STRONG fella to start one of these. The Indians don't give things away very often. I think two people are supposed to start it together. (I added an electric start)
I'm with Jimmer and Tater, oil that shaft and pre test the crank for defects, also make sure the wood handle spins freely and fits your hand.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2006, 12:44:26 AM »
There's NO way my engine will start without following through the compression stroke with the handle engaged...  To remove the handle and then start is a no-go from the word go.


now that is interesting, because my neglected 50 year old (genuine) lister will start every time without the handle, and before you discount the extra weight flywheels on a S-O-M I used the start the old bog standard CS 6/1 (water pump) the same way, and I don't think that thing had the head off from new.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2006, 01:19:05 AM »
Guy--

It must be a difference in compression (?)  Mine is cinched down as low as it can go and still have the valves off the piston.

The most common fault I see with people trying to start an engine is 'throwing the handle' at the compression stroke.

Ok...I'm a curious guy.  I shut the computer and satelite modems down and went and shut down my Listeroid (after 12 1/2 hours of steady running).  I checked the oil, water, mounts and such and just as an experiment tried to start my engine with the handle off.  NO way!!

I can wind it up as tight as I can and **carefully** remove the handle without flinging the big end into my jerky cutters, and flip the valve lifter 'off'.  It bounces back on the compression stroke every time.   ??? ???

The first compression stroke is 99.99% of the time the starting stroke on mine and I have no resistance on the crank once it fires (no way to catch it) but you better be giving it your all to get it through that first stroke. 

Another test of compression?   I have a VERY tough time trying to go through compression with just the flywheel, too.  It takes the crank and a running head start.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2006, 10:18:37 AM »
The only way I can "crank" mine through compression with the decompressor disengaged is very very very slowly as gas leaks past the rings, which can be as easily done by pulling the flywheel rim slowly.

only way I could get a "bounce back" off compression is by turning it too slowly, eg the "three turns and pull the handle off" system was told to me because after three turns you weren't going to be able to make it spin any faster anyway...

bore is the same in a listeroid, as is stroke, so only variables are.


1/ TRB instead of plain - shouldn't make a difference to this.
2/ Injection timing - have absolutely no idea timing and duration of listeroid injection
3/ CR - and I know this does vary even between listeroid brands.

On regular light road diesel mine has a perfectly clean exhaust, CS valve either open or closed, and I can't say I've ever started on a CS valve open, because again we were not told "starting only" like you listeroid blokes, we were told starting and light loads anything up to 50%, oh, and up a mountain, so we may be on to something here.

without looking for the puff of black smoke / excess fuel from a genuine lister on start up, you're hard pressed to tell if the first two or three firing strokes have happened as far as your ears are concerned, what you do notice is the flywheels spinning up, which leads me to suspect valve timing / lift / duration / profile may be slightly different on the listeroids too.

this is actually very interesting, I must do an audio recording of mine starting so you guys can compare, and I'd love to see a UK based listeroid start if anyone on the group has one, as I suspect there is significant more than TRB v plain differences between genuine and listeroid
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rsnapper

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2006, 12:45:19 PM »
SHIPCHIEF, Got any pics of that electric start?

Andre Blanchard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2006, 02:06:15 PM »
"The only way I can "crank" mine through compression with the decompressor disengaged is very very very slowly as gas leaks past the rings, which can be as easily done by pulling the flywheel rim slowly."

That is true for my listeroid also if you mean from a standing start.  If I get it spinning before disengaging the decompressor I can build up enough energy in the flywheels during the 630° between compression strokes to keep it going as long as I like (injector off).  Interest fades rapidly after 3 or 4 compression strokes sooner if I am sucking 15°F air.
___________
Andre' B.
______________
Andre' B

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: Important safety reminder, please point at me and laugh.
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2006, 03:38:44 PM »
Yes;
Go to the coppermine photo gallery and look up 'User Galleries' then look for SHIPCHIEF. I only have one picture, you can see the electric start there.  Also, under SHIP CHIEF I have a picture of my oil filter for mounting inside the crankcase inspection door.
The electric start is a Chevrolet starter; generic V8 type, and a compatable automatic transmission flexplate-ring gear. I made the hub out of round stock, on an ancient South Bend lathe, by facing and boring. During facing, I left a raised ring for the center hole of the flexplate to center on. I hand cut the keyway, and drilled the flywheel holes on a drill press, also an antique. I made the gib key out of 1/2" square stock, and tapered it by grinder, file and try fit.
The starter motor mount is welded up out of steel left overs from my shop. I made it a little low, and add shims (fender washers) to bring the motor / adapter assembly up into alignment with the gear.
I would have prefered to mount the starter / ring gear assembly on the generator instead of the engine. It would have had a better reduction ratio, and looked cooler too  8) But my 15 Kw head is too wide and the ring gear too small for the starter to reach.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's