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Author Topic: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet  (Read 12365 times)

clytle374

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2007, 05:07:44 AM »
With all due respect. mobil_bob your statement was like finger nails on a chalk board. I agree with cleanliness on engine builds %100. And rings should seat if done right.

A lot of dumb a**s used bon ami for years with good result, I've seen it work.

Are you sure that calcite & feldspar will remain in large enough partials to damage a engine? Neither is very hard. I was told that you rinse the cylinders with gasoline and change the oil after.

You state to hone and replace the rings instead, what else it there too loose.  I would probably replace the bearings if i pull a piston anyway. No one told him to dump bon ami in the motor, except as a last resort.

Bon Ami is NOT sand. And there is nothing in a engine with a finish like glass.

Over unity is oxymoron, yet the "law of entropy" has been broken for ~3 years.  Not a law but a technological limitation.

You would have to build a lot of identical engines in a controlled environment to say 2-3 times the life span. (no argument about increased life span)

I would add wiping a bore out with a clean finger is the only safe last step, you can use a 100 towels and you can still pick up a piece of grit with a clean finger.   







mobile_bob

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2007, 07:46:17 AM »
guys:

my point is simply, to get things as clean as possible,, yes it is true there will always be some crap that we all miss.

but if you make a fairly serious effort to get it clean you will dramatically reduce the chances of any significant amount of crap
that will only aid in a more rapid wear of your engine.

i saw this play out many times over the years, i worked with guys who would take cylinder kits out of the box and rinse them in solvent
and assemble them in the engine.

the difference in breakin time is significant as is the oil consumption of the finished engine,

when i adopted these procedures i routinely had engines that would run twice as many miles to a gallon of oil (hd truck diesels) and in some
cases 3 times the mileage.

after going to a few schools (detroit, cummins, cat and IH) and in particular watching a film from cummins where they ran a test
in a lab to see just how much dust it takes to kill an engine, it not only became painfully clear but amazingly apparent that very little dust
can cause dramatic reduction in engine lifespan.

the amazing part was it doesnt make much difference how the dust gets in,, down the intake, in with the oil at changes, in the fuel
and yes even at overhaul. and it don't make any difference if it goes in all at once or over time, the same amount of dust in grams
results in the same reduction in useful hours of runtime whether it is admitted at assembly, or a bit at a time in the oil
or dumped down the intake all at once!

very little dust just play's hell on things.

for instance the crosshatch of a honed cylinder can hold the fine abrasives from the hone, deep down inside the tiny little grooves,
which under magnification look like canyons and hold what appears to be boulders!

what takes place when the engine is working to break in, there will be some oil bypassing the rings and it will pick up these fine abrasives
and combine with them to make a fine lapping compound.
while this might at first appear to aid in breakin, what the reality is you have worn a bunch of the useful life out of the liner and off the rings.
once this lapping compound gets into the rings, between them and into the lands it takes along time to either be blown out the exhaust or work its way
past the rings and into the oil (where it will work to wear out other parts in the basement), or
it stays in the ring lands where they wear out and then the rings start to flutter and there goes your compression and oil control.

i would rather err on the side of exageration, and aid in folks doing a better job and the result being a better and longer lived engine, than
to sit back and say nothing.

the bottom line is perhaps not everyone has alot of experience building engines, or alot of specialized tooling, but
everyone can learn to clean things up properly, it only takes knowing how and the time to do so.

we all have heard the horror stories of engines coming from the sand pits of india, being put into use and worn out in a few hundred hours
and then we also hear of folks that take the time to go thru and carefully detail all the parts, clean them properly and find them running thousands of
hours.

if by using my suggestions for cleaning allow the engine to run only an extra 100 hrs, would it not be worth the extra couple hours to thoroughly clean it to start with?
odds are the extra run time will far exceed the 100hours of extra run time, but i think the point has been made. :)

just be thankful most of you are working in fairly clean environments, and only have to control the components of a one or two cylinder engine.
you haven't lived till you have to control the environment for 6, 8, 12 or 16 cylinder kits and all the related components in a windy, dusty outside
environment.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

greasemonkey

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2007, 12:39:18 PM »
First of all thanks for all of you interesting comments, I have only had the engine for 5 months and have a zero backgroung in any sort of engine, if the lawn mower puffs smoke I take it to the service man whom charges me about $120.00 for his service, how you know who you are dealing with.. Ok Why do I have a diesel engine, I have always be fascinated with the history of these engines (Lister) I enjoy turning the engine over and just listen to it thump away... The engine is a CS 3.5 1952, I don't run anything from it, when the engine is running always have the compressing screw fully in (full Load) The water tanks is full, the longest I have run the engine is 55 minutes and NO water is circulating, the water level is above the water outlet, I placed the garden holes in the outlet and water came out of the inlet so can't be blocked, maybe the engine just isn't getting hot enough. RAB has asked if it's all oil or just oily, Sorry mate I don't no just very black crap?? When I purchased the engine the seller said that he hadn't started the engine for 2.5 years but the engine was in great working order with new piston rings, he tried to start the engine for me and it couldn't start, he put his hand in the fuel tank and it was full of leaves and the fuel was the same colour and consistence and treacle.. several weekends later I cleaned out the lines, oil filter and injector still wouldn't start so I removed the injector and had it serviced, the service department informed me that the inject needle?? inside the nozzle was scored and was no good, I replaced the injector back on the head cranked it over and the beast till this day works perfectly every time I start it for a listen (ever weekend),.. Note that just about all of the gaskets on the head are leaking with water after 15 minutes of running and smoke is starting to come out of the compressing screw ( will be ordering a full set of gaskets from the UK shortly (http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/) note that the injector wasn't calibrated when service because the service guy said it wasn't going to be any good anyway, the injector was full cleaned (looked brand new) when I fitted the fuel line to the injector I cranked the wheel and turned the screw on top until I had a fine mist, tightened the nut and thats it.. I was hoping to join a club that specializes in these engines but haven't found one close to where I live, Greenvale, Victoria AU.. I hope to completely dismantle the engine and rebuild it and maybe run a a small water pump, No interest in running smell fish and chip oil for fuel. If you would like to see it running you can YouTube - Lister CS in Melbourne Or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCPhcpRT1BI - any feed back will be helpful and again thanks for the replies - greasemonky

rmchambers

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2007, 01:16:03 PM »
Sounds like you need to give the engine some work to do, it's just sitting there running but clamoring for some work to get it to break a sweat.  Not sure what you have laying around you can give it to work on, perhaps a water pump, pumping from a stationary tank back into that tank etc.

Many posts here talk about how it's better not to start the engine at all if you're not going to work it hard as it can cause the slobbering condition you seem to be having.

Robert

mobile_bob

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2007, 05:38:51 PM »
you mention adjusting the injector until you just had a fine mist.

this might be a good part of your problem

the injector pressure works on a differential pressure basically you adjusted it to atomize at atmospheric pressure
when put in a compression chamber where the pressure go up to maybe 400 plus psi, the injector now must overcome this added pressure
and in doing so may not be atomizing as well as you might think.

for instance the injector might atomize well adjusted for 800 psi in open air, but when you try to inject into a 400 psi container
your effective psi will be lower,

you might adjust it for a bit more pressure and see if this helps.

and as Robert noted, you need to get a load on it so that the old girl can build some heat.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

oliver90owner

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2007, 06:27:00 PM »
End of string, reallty.

Original post said"Hi Can anyone tell me why my 3.5 drips oil from the exhaust outlet, drips every 12 seconds and very black - thanks"

With a bit of information we can now put the topic to bed.  No load, poor compression, not hot enough, poor atomisation, rings not seating, and maybe a few others.

That is the first time I have seen a post quite like that, where the poster is honest enough to put their hands up to "engine abuse" like that!!!

Greasemnonkey, if you treated a child like that, you could have been thrown in jail :) :).  You must now make amends and start treating your engine like one of the family.  Give it a chance to get hot pulling a decent load after getting the pop-pressure set poperly and it will last a lot longer than otherwise.  And it should stop dripping, eventually.  Tender loving care leads to a contented engine :)

Regards, RAB

hotater

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 03:02:06 AM »
Low popoff pressure and no load makes a Lister slobber like a skunked dog.    ;)

I didn't have a load ready for my 6-1 kit engine so I used a two by four as a lever to bear against the flywheel.  It made the genhouse so smoky I rigged the lumber with a weight to supply the pressure while I went somewhere else.  The engine never offered to slobber and has still not used any crankcase oil between 250 hour changes for 3300 hours.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

greasemonkey

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 11:40:09 AM »
Thanks for all of your comments I have purchased a small Ajax pump and when I get it fixed I might use it for circulating water around, how will I know if the water pump is over or under working the engine - what is the guild line, Regards Geasemonky - I think i'll change my name to newmonkey haven't ernt the right to greasemony yet...

hotater

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 01:59:08 PM »
'monkey---

If the engine is straining hard to keep up and blowing black smoke (unburned fuel) you know it's overloaded.  If it doesn't start spewing hot water in about 20 minutes (without thermostat) or 10 minutes with a t'stat, the engine is not working hard enough.
It's is HARD on a diesel engine to run without load.. DON'T do it.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Quinnf

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 04:51:07 PM »
Black smoke is an indication that the engine is working too hard.  No smoke, and in your case slobbering, are an indication that the engine is not working hard enough.  Somewhere in between, towards the heavily loaded side is where the stars come into alignment.

If the pump is intended to provide a load, like you sometimes see on demonstration engines at shows, you might be able to rig a valve on the output side of the pump and partially close it to provide some back pressure for the engine to work against.  Simply pumping water against no head pressure doesn't require much energy.

What I would do is start the engine pumping water and slowly close the valve on the output side of the pump until you start seeing gray or black smoke.  Then back off the valve until the smoke disappears.  That should be about the right amount of load for the engine.

What Hotater and everyone else says about loading the engine is right.  You need to get the engine up to temperature and working hard for it to run right. 

Quinn
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 04:54:59 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

greasemonkey

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2007, 11:28:54 AM »
Thanks again guy's for your reply s, putting a valve on the exit line of the pump seem a the way to go to start with, I asked my nabour about generating some electricity with the engine and he believes that I should be able to generate about 2Kw that seems a lot for a 3.5HP even though it has plenty of grunt, can anyone reply with the amount of load I could generate AFTER a full rebuild of the engine...

carlb23

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Re: Black diesel dripping from exhaust outlet
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 02:10:41 PM »
A good rule of thumb is 2hp per kw. I think his estimate is a little high, you probable will able to get about 1.75kw out of it under a full load.