Author Topic: my second Lister an 12/2 CS  (Read 8014 times)

catmankarl

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my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« on: September 08, 2007, 12:34:24 AM »
Hello,

My new acquisition an CS 12-2  from  1945   n°  54651 in restored condition  :D
see picutres on my webpage http://home.scarlet.be/cloot/listerengine12-2.htm

But I have a problem, the taper pin of the camshaft pinion is worn out, and the gib key  will not come out. :-[

I have tried with the gib key puller with the result of a broken  key !!  What can I do ?? >:(

Wy are these key so difficult to remove ??  Thank for any suggestions

Karl.
Lister Blackstone EV4  180 HP 600tr/min
Lister Blackstone EPV2 80 HP 600 tr/min
Moes 2 cyl 50 HP 1000tr/min
Petter AA1

Doug

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2007, 02:28:02 AM »
That unit looks like a collector has restored it  ???

I have read the gib head keys can be drilled to weaken their grip or have a new head welded on.

I got lucky, and a lot of good advice here.

This is Hoatater's field of expertise....

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

oliver90owner

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2007, 09:00:22 AM »
Drilling them is not a problem - well, yes it can be!

First time I did it I made a drill holder, on my lathe, and soldered the drills into it.  Was a bit of a drag and slow but I got there.  I pilot drilled, removed the bit from the holder, enlarged the hole in it and soldered in the next size drill bit. I have now picked up some some long drills for the job (surprisingly- they popped up in a model engineering sale when I didn't need them, but I bought them for a song with the long view in mind!), but back then it was cheaper (and easier?) just to do that one key - after all it was the only one I was ever likely to want to remove, wasn't it?  - er, wrong!! :).  Neither was it a CS; smaller key, less of a problem.

The secret is to go carefully, start with a small pilot hole so as to get it centred and aligned precicely and then enlarge, preferably in stages being very careful not to break off a high speed steel drill bit in the key - it is hard enough without making things worse!  Having a torque limit on the electric drill helps to reduce the risk of breakage.  Really sharp drill bits are a must.  Taking your time is a must too! Tiring or rushing can so easily lead to broken tips.
Having done a few, I don't worry so much.  Just experience, I suppose.  That first one to a non-engineer can be daunting.

Regarding preparation for gib key removal; most will have a preferred release oil for pre-soaking for several days, or even weeks.  Mine is a Danco product.  Not sure whether the newer products are as good as the old ones (health and safety, 'banned' substances etc) so my near empty cans are used very sparingly these days.  I find it magic compared to quite a few others I have tried.  Scrupulous cleaning/derusting of the exit path for the key and the flywheel are most important.  Preparation is a LOT more than half the job of pulling off a flywheel!  The initial movement is the hardest part so cleaning right into the edge of the flywheel is the 'key'area for attention.

Remember, if you think you are going to make things worse, get help as it is cheaper than the alternatives.  Carbide tipped drills can be used to recover the situation but the more it is butchered, the harder it is to recover the situation.  But remember this; they were designed for easy service and robustness.  They are difficult to damage as long as exteme force or totally inappropriate procedures are not inflicted on the parts.  The 'oids' may be a little more fragile than the original Listers - after all, the originals are at least twenty years old and could be over seventy.

Hope this helps and doesn't terrify you too much.

Regards, RAB

rpg52

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2007, 05:42:06 PM »
The 12-2 is quite a pretty engine - however, would it make anyone else nervous having an engine tank-cooled (thermo-siphon) with a lower outlet sloped down to the tank and an upper outlet with a water level just above it?

I suppose the Lister Co. knew what they were doing, but I wouldn't feel confident the thermo-siphon would work effectively without both upper and lower outlets sloping up to the tank and a couple inches of water above the upper outlet.  Maybe I'm just a bit less confident that nothing could possibly go wrong and the engine over heat.  Or, is it a design that compensates for not having a thermostat in the upper outlet?  So many questions.

Not having ever removed a gib key, I can't add much to that discussion, sorry.   :P
Ray
« Last Edit: September 08, 2007, 05:45:05 PM by rpg52 »
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

Jim Mc

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2007, 12:26:39 AM »
...would it make anyone else nervous having an engine tank-cooled (thermo-siphon) with a lower outlet sloped down to the tank ...

The lower water line is the engines's inlet, not outlet.  Why would its slope matter? 

The upper obviously needs to slope up to the tank.  But the lower?

Stan

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2007, 01:20:57 AM »
If the water level falls below the level of the upper water line, I suppose the water would still flow, even if it didn't the cooling would revert from thermosiphon to reservoir cooling.  It would boil but as long as the water level in the tank didn't fall below the level of the top of the head, continue to cool the engine just like countless reservoir cooled engines (like Changfas).  That's my take on it simply by knowing the physics of water and gravity.  Except I still haven't quite figured out the physics of overcoming gravity, that's next week's project.  ;D
stan

MeanListerGreen

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2007, 01:30:17 AM »
Congratulations!  That is a nice find.  It doesn't look like it has had much use.  What was it used for?  I have removed broken gib keys before.  They can be stubborn.  I would advise against drilling, personal preference.  I have found that the best way, providing you have enough of the broken gib key left to work with, is to weld another gib key to the broken portion and pull from the new key.  A verticle up weld is preferred.  I use 7018 welding rod.  I also make a dam in the key way with some putty and fill the space between the keyway and the dam with penitrating oil.  The brand I use is called Kroil. I let this set for at least 24 hours. I suspect you are from Europe so you may not be able to find it there.  If necessary I will use an pnuematic engraving tool to add some vibration to workthe Kroil into the crevices being careful not to mare the surface of the crank or the flywheel.  It's a good idea to use "sacrificial" piece of steel in between the two.  I also will use a heat gun to heat up the keyway just prior to pulling. Not too hot though just around 250 degrees and not for a very long time.  The puller is also very important.  There are some pics on the sight (try a search) of a very good type puller to use.  I suspect you have the puller that is a piece of plate steel with 3 or 4 bolts used to spread the key from the flywheel.  I'm not sure how well, if at all, this will work with a key welded to the broken one.  For this method you will need the pipe type puller with the acme screw.  It hooks around the key and pulls from the end of the crank instead of spreading from the flywheel.  This is also better for the flywheel as you aren't exerting damaging pressure on the crank hub.  Well that is  it in a nutshell.  It takes time and patience but when it breaks free it will all be worth it.  The battle will be yours.  By the way, why did you need to try and pull the key to begin with?  It looks like the engine is in very good nick.  Good luck to you.
MLG Gib Key Pullers

catmankarl

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2007, 03:12:00 PM »
HI

Thanks for all the advices, my problem is that the taper pin from the camshaft wheel is worn out, I have no chance with thie Gib Key... it seems to be weld to the
crankshaft, see pictures en my page  http://home.scarlet.be/cloot/listerengine12-2.htm
 
No I have pull the key from the camshaft wheel out and fit a new one. Working through the crancase openig is not very easy. :o
I hope that it goes well with this repair. ??? :-\
I intend to use this engine to heat my home with a 7,5 KVA alternator and the cooling water from my home heating goes through the engine in parallel with my Lister Blackstone 4 cylinder. So I do not need the water tank.
In the past this engine was used in a mill here in Belgium. I have all the documents of 1946-6 with the engine. ;)

Karl



Lister Blackstone EV4  180 HP 600tr/min
Lister Blackstone EPV2 80 HP 600 tr/min
Moes 2 cyl 50 HP 1000tr/min
Petter AA1

rmchambers

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2007, 04:12:46 PM »
That is a beautiful engine Karl, tres belle.

Not that I've ever tried to get a Gib key out of a 60 year old engine but you might be able to help yourself a bit by stripping the paint from around the key and the flywheel where it meets the shaft.

The paint could be hiding rust or something else.  take that paint off and get some penetrating oil in there, let it sit for a good long while to do it's stuff.  It doesn't look like you're rushing this job which is good and your welded up gib key puller looks like it should put the pressure where it needs to be.

Keep us informed as to how you get on, this kind of experience I believe will help the group.

Robert

listerdiesel

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2007, 08:39:33 PM »
The 12-2 is quite a pretty engine - however, would it make anyone else nervous having an engine tank-cooled (thermo-siphon) with a lower outlet sloped down to the tank and an upper outlet with a water level just above it?
Ray

Yes, it would.

See:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/102P4data.htm

ALL Lister tank-cooled engines have the tank raised so that the base of the tank is level with the inlet to the base of the cylinders, both petrol and diesels have this arrangement.

I'd be inclined to try and get the tank raised up some if the engine is to be worked at all.

Peter

rpg52

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2007, 11:08:41 PM »
Thanks Peter,
I didn't recall it from that diagram, but thought I'd seen a "Thou shalt not . . . " regarding slope of thermosiphon hoses.  As Stan and Jim mention, it likely isn't in danger, as it would still act as a hopper for cooling purposes.  Lifting the tank a couple inches (or a couple feet) seems like it would be safer though, IMHO.  (Though maybe less stable on that lovely engine cart.)
Ray   :)
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

catmankarl

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Re: my second Lister an 12/2 CS
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2007, 09:04:13 PM »
 :D What a sound... the 12-2 is repaired and after a few turns of the crankshaft is runs very smoothly... what a nice engine, it make pleasure to hear this sound.
thanks for all your help.
a happy Karl :-*
Lister Blackstone EV4  180 HP 600tr/min
Lister Blackstone EPV2 80 HP 600 tr/min
Moes 2 cyl 50 HP 1000tr/min
Petter AA1

catmankarl

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« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 09:01:19 PM by catmankarl »
Lister Blackstone EV4  180 HP 600tr/min
Lister Blackstone EPV2 80 HP 600 tr/min
Moes 2 cyl 50 HP 1000tr/min
Petter AA1