Author Topic: Start O Matic Electrics  (Read 14324 times)

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Start O Matic Electrics
« on: August 26, 2007, 12:32:31 AM »
1).  At what frequency do these 240 volt units operate? 

B).  Can they be synchronized to our 60 hertz North America standard for net metering or should one just find a lonely engine and go from there?

Low Gear
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 07:35:40 PM »
So before I seach the Forum this evening:

 
Quote
use an induction generator
.

These are very different from the ST heads that go for around $500?

LG
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 08:55:18 PM »
Any old induction motor will do the trick. It can be tricky finding big single-phase ones though.

So how does this work, you plug the motor into the grid, and once it's spinning, you engage a clutch from a lister or turbine, and try to spin it faster than it runs as a motor ??     Do you have to rewire it,   add Run Caps to it ???

xyzer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 09:28:41 PM »
The one I saw the guy just turned on the power to the motor which started the Listeroid. When the Listeroid got up to speed it started to turn the meter the good way! No grid power no off grid power is the drawback I see. I can still buy electricity cheaper than I can make it.
Dave
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

SCOTT

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 10:02:22 PM »
I was planned to net meter going the induction generator route, but my utility required some very expensive protective equipment if I used an inducton generator.  I have since changed to an inverter based system.  I had a single phase 10hp motor made for me at the factory that made the gen heads I brought in, I now have no need for this motor, so if anyone needs a large 10hp single phase motor, let me know

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2007, 08:17:53 AM »
Hawaii is 32 cents a kilowatt.  Get ready - it’s coming to your home in the future.

I am confused about this induction motor program.  If the meter is spinning backwards how does the induction motor sense that there's no power when the grid goes down.  Or is that it just can't get started when the grid is down?

If you have solar then don't you have the expensive stuff for synchronizing with the grid?  Then what you need is an inverter to get from the ST AC to the DC that the synchronization box wants or find a DC system.  How many percent does this waste?

How powerful of Lister engine would you need to power the 10 HP induction motor properly?

LG
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 02:28:58 PM »
a DC system.  How many percent does this waste?

Look here, daytimes in Los Angeles:
http://www.mike-burgess.org/images/GT_Screen_Save.png
This is my 4.5KW solar array & inverter, and the inverter is spec'd at 95%  I seldom see less than than that.
PV  Panels typically put out about 75% of their nameplate rating , just like car MPG stickers.

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 05:31:16 PM »
Quote
Look here, daytimes in Los Angeles:
http://www.mike-burgess.org/images/GT_Screen_Save.png
That's really a nice display.  Will you share more information about your system?  Have your tax credits / rebates been what you expected? 

What kind of device is used to sync a ST head kind of "generator"?

Quote
An induction generator receives its excitation in the way of reactive power from the grid (that's why you need capacitance across it to make it work in standalone operation) - no grid - no excitement - no output!
Will it still auto sync with the capacitors across it. 

Quote
Any size engine would drive it - it just depends how much power you want out of it.
How much power would I get out of this motor if I connected it to a 6/1?

Thank you all for helping with this thread.  I have even looked up inverter just to try to keep up.

Low Gear
NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 08:32:21 PM »
Quote
Look here, daytimes in Los Angeles:
http://www.mike-burgess.org/images/GT_Screen_Save.png
That's really a nice display.  Will you share more information about your system?  Have your tax credits / rebates been what you expected? 
   

see my homepage icon under my avatar, 2 pages of info linked to it.
 tax credits were exactly what installer promised, but for turnkey systems, the rebates get eaten by labor costs. It does shave a big chunk of daily usage, and keeps my bill in the "baseline" allocation (California has a "graduated" electric rate scale, first 300KW = $0.12, next 200KW are $0.19, and so on to about 35c/KW for homes. )   

Anyway, DC to 240VAC  inverters are pretty efficient in the multi-KW range.

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 02:49:04 AM »
Well low gear to be on the safe side 10 shaft horse power is all you should try and drive and induction motor rated at 10 hp....

What you will get out the other end is going to be a little less than the name plate rating for power out but thats because the losses that would normaly draw power from the electrical source are now being suplied with shaft power.

The only way to realy set this up is to get your slip speed. If the motor is rated at 1750 Rpm a good starting point would be to try and drive it at 1840 rpm and see how much currnet its sourcing to the line. I'd guess if your at about 80% or 90 % of the motors full load current thats about as far as you should push it. If your current is less increase the speed.

You don't want to push things too hard. The reason is you may need to drive the motor with say 12 shaft hp to get the name plate current out of it and this extra power might be too much strain for the bearings and could cause things to over heat.

So its a matter of experimentation at least at first untill you learn the limits if the set.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 06:08:33 AM »
Doug,
So if I want to install, maintain and run a 6/1 then I should look for an approximately 5 HP induction generator motor?

Quote
first 300KW = $0.12, next 200KW are $0.19, and so on to about 35c/KW for homes

Progressive huh.  Hawaii Electric Company - HELCO or as I call it the company from Hell feels your swimming pool motor shouldn't be any different from a baby bottle warmer.  Of course we sales tax both the water for the pool and the formula for the baby at the same rate to maintain a philosophy of the constant solar system.

Have you considered wheels for the monolith?

NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 06:59:53 PM »
Yes I think 5 hp is about right, this will only load up the 6/1 to about 80% of its rated power so a 6 hp induction motor might be a better fit.

You don't want to load your engine less than 5 hp if you can help it for efficient running and you can't push anymore than that 6 hp shaft power threw a 6/1 so thats about the range I would be looking for.

Remember when you set up the machine and load it up you shouldn't expect more than say aroung 80% full rated current from the induction motor ( now a generator ). You don't want top overload things...

Your also going to need a magnetic contactor, a fused disconect or breaker and a chat with the local inspector on how he wants this done.

Since I expect most of you won't be hiring electricians and getting permits for this kind of thing, I still think it would be wise to buy a tray of coffee and some doughnuts and stop buy the electrical authority inspection office and talk to the man. He won't be impressed with you but most of these guys are far more interested in seeing safe work and installations than nitpicking about proceedure and permits especialy if you are asking " hypothetical " questions and do not put the man in a possitions of knowing more than he needs or wants to know.

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

LowGear

  • Casey
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2130
  • What? My diesel had fries for lunch?
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2007, 09:58:48 PM »
The Plan
Step one:  Get a properly installed permitted net metering solar system.

Step B:      Install a lister based power station.

Step one will require a grid power-down automatic site isolation switch rendering step B safe - Right?.

Incidently It's one thing to "good ole boy" the inspectors (don't try it in Washington State) and quite another to put others at fatal risk or getting knocked off a ladder without all their fingers. 

So what are the applications that induction motors are used so that a person might start shopping?

NPR Tipper/Dump Truck
Kubota BX 2230
Witte BD Generator
SunnyBoy 6000 + SolarWorld 245

Quinnf

  • Rest in peace
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
    • View Profile
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2007, 10:45:25 PM »
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 10:49:06 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Start O Matic Electrics
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2007, 11:24:31 PM »
Well I have never "Good Old Boyed" the inspector....

I deal with 3 or 4 guys on a fairly regualr basis and we have an understanding that I can ask any question I like and they will get nothing but the truth from me.

I do not ask questions that will cause them grief or try and loop hole around things.

Sometimes for liability reasons they may only wish to offer advice on hypothetical things so give them an opertunity to be hypothetical. They also have the discretionary power to grant a varriance provided you can offer a good reason for not following the letter of the code if you can provide good reasons for why your way is better or the only practical way something can be done.

Technicaly the electrical inspector has no authority to tell me how I do anything at work. Infact I could tell him to pound sand up his bumb ( like that comment, I read it here eh? ), but input from guys who live by the book can make my job easier ( but usualy does the opposite ) and usualy makes my instalations safer.

Point I am trying to drive home they are experts and I am an electrician commenting on things not knowing the local and state rules or specifics of the American NEC.
And no one ever got in trouble asking for input before they tried something.
Better still get a permit and get it inspected as well.

Also your going need a single phase motor with no run capacitors or have them disconnected to be fail safe in a grid system if utility power fails in order to prevent feedback to the grid.

Doug
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken