Author Topic: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh  (Read 25295 times)

Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 03:27:26 AM »
well I guess Im stuck in this conversation some how but  dont call me an idiot or hurt my feelings . After the initial exitement of gettin my roid runnin Ihave come to the conclusion I agree with Guy cause. I think i have half the capability of producing power then you guys with a 1800 rpm head. My best annalegy is driven my car and forgetting to shif down after rounding a corner it luggs and shudders and dosent do at all well. Today I loaded the roid  with 11 amp moter 4 amp florecent lights and then kicked on a small compressor and watched the voltage drop and drop and ect. I unpluged the compressor. Im sad. With my gen head at 3600 rpm it like Im 4 th gear while yous guys are in third I guess a new head is in order.

Greg
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

trigzy

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2006, 05:00:00 AM »
Mr. X,
       What is the rated kW of your head?  Is it wired for a 120V only, or 120/240?  Are the loads 120 or 240?  Are the belts slipping at all?  Are you measuring the current on these devices or just reading the label? (There can be alot more to the story.  For example, a motor with a blown cap may still run, but it might draw a lot more current than it says on the label.)  Are you running your 6/1 at 650RPM and the generator at 3600RPM?  I'd be curious to see your setup.   What type of voltage regulation is on your head?  You should still be able to make about 3500-4000 watts out of it, assuming you dont lose too much with an inefficent drive system or alternator.  The two 3/4HP motors is a respectable load to handle,  I'd be curious to see what a Kill-A-Watt could tell us.  I also wonder about your engines output due to your altitude/it being relatively new (based on reading through your earlier posts).

Glad to see another Canuck on here btw...

Steve
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 05:08:53 AM by trigzy »
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2006, 01:01:09 AM »
My head is a 4k 3600rpm Winko . The loads are 120 v. And I did it again to day the cement mixer is 11 amp so after start up may us 8? 
the compressor is 10 so useses 10 or so the lights 4 amp. my arithmatic sais thats 25-2600 wats I found out Im only 1700 feet bove sea level and the moter is new. No the belt aint slippen I have no idea of the voltage regulation I cant find my owners manual. A friend has an amp meter Il borrow and get a better I dea. I was talking to a fellow with 30 years moter rewind experiance and he agrees wit me 3600 rpm gen head is like driven my chevy s 10 up a mountin in 4 th gear you aint goingto do it He made me the generous offer    [ 200 bucks] for four  7.5" Brush" gen heads, used, taken off listers these are brush type 1800 rpm,  and stashed in his garage for 10 years or so. The reason these were changed out was cause the new brushless type came along and in a years worth of use u used to have to change brushes every year. Well in my use that would equate to 3 years.These are huge compared to the mounting  bracket of my 4k . Well 1 step forward and 2 backwards. I have found this solar shit like that If I could go in a strait line to my goal it would reasonably cheap Its all the wrong turns a fellow makes on the way that cost the loot. Has any one heard of "Brush " gen heads. Im sure they made a few or he has the only 4 in existance.

Greg
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 01:05:22 AM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

quinnf

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2006, 04:47:38 AM »
If that's a 120/240 V gen head and you're loading only one side, then I can understand that kind of voltage droop.  Like Steve says, we need more information to diagnose the problem.  The Winco head is an older head.  With a 4" pulley it should run fine off a 'roid. 

It was made before the days manufacturers learned they could get away with labeling an air compressor 5 horsepower and then list the current draw as only 11 Amps on the name plate.  After the EPA, those people will be the next against the wall when the Revolution comes. 

There's a pic of one on the otherpower.com site.  From the looks of that case, I'd estimate 1950-something vintage.

 

« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 04:53:48 AM by quinnf »

Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2006, 04:18:28 PM »
My head is 1- 2 years old it was recomended by my rewind guy as a good un. It is 120/240 head and no I didnt load one side there is a fuse on each nside and it would of poped at15 amp. What elets can I say, up hill in 4 th gear agree or not its the head rpm.

Greg
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2006, 05:37:02 PM »
I once had an electrician tell me a 240 volt 1/2 hp well pump would take less power then a 120 volt 1/2 pump.  He refused to believe any explanation of the relationship of amperage and power.

Why is such a simple concept as the relationship of energy, power, speed, and force so difficult for people to understand?
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Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2006, 06:44:16 PM »
Andre Im not  shure who you agree with or diss agree. But electric power is wats 1/2 hp electric is 750 w devided by 2 = 375 w
120V  x 3.125A= 375W yah ok 240V x 1.56A=375W yah so . Your gen head or your moter still sees this  as  wats They dont care still have to work as hard 120 or 240 long as wats are same. Its  my ability to produce as many wats as you can with your 1800 rpm head . Because of the gear ratio. Dont mater much In the spring I change heads.

Greg
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 06:46:07 PM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2006, 08:12:59 PM »
Amps and volts are to watts as torque and RPM are to horsepower.

Two generators, one at 1800 rpm the other at 3600 rpm, both putting out the same amount of power.  The 3600 rpm gen will take 1/2 as much torque to turn as the 1800 rpm gen.  If the engines running them are turning the same speed the gear ratio to the 3600 rpm gen. is double the ratio to the 1800 rpm generator.  The torque that the engines see is the same for each.
These relationships are being tested all the time by students in engineering and physics labs all over the planet, if the formulas were to ever change it would be big news.

Unless I missed something you have not measured the voltage and amps (both measured at the same time) while turning on the loads to your generator.  Until you do, you really do not know what the continuous or more important the surge loads are.

The 1800 rpm generator especially the over built ST's, will likely have a larger amount of stored energy in the armature which will help get thru surge loads.  That could be fixed by simply adding a flywheel to the generator shaft.
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quinnf

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2006, 01:46:31 AM »
Andre, he was either confused as to the cause of the power loss, or he was simply talking about what he saw in typical installations.  The 120 V pump will draw twice the current of the 240 V pump.  If they're using the same gauge wires, the resistive power loss in the supply cable will be twice as great in the 120 volt pump, which will run slower, pump less water, and perform poorer than the 240 volt pump.  That's gotta be what he meant. 

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2006, 01:12:24 PM »
No this "electrician" was definitely talking meter spins slower, costs less money.  He has not and never will do any work at my place, but then neither will any other electrician.
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Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2006, 08:35:34 PM »
Im no scientist so this is to the best of my ability to make a un biased test. all this discussion has made me curious,  here are the results. I havent tallied them yet so the result is a suprise to me. I think I was shootin my mouth off .

Test
Genset nice and warm running for 30-45- min with loads, only maybe 2 hr break in time on Roid. Im at bout 1700 feet above sea level 
Running a 3600 rpm winco gen may be 2 years old not that many hr on it.
Loads involved
7- 4 foot 2 bulb florecent lights  4 A
Battery charger running automotive fan  taged @  1.2 A
Observed voltage 117-118V
Cemetmixer started  113-112V  Draws 8 1/2 A      25A surge
Grinder started       109V         Draws 3 A        9A surge
Drill press started     104V        Draws 4.5         7.5A surge
Bandsaw started     99V          Draws 4A          8 A surge
250 W Hallogen   96V holding   Draws 2A 
                                                      27 A total x 96V = 2592 W   
I suppose when u put numbers to the loads it becomes apparent how easy it is to underestimate loads Id say thats impressive. for a littel moter.Didnt I read someplace to expect 3000 continuious  close enough for me . It didnt sound like my Roid was labouring beyond capability and juging by the heat created the rad and fan were handeling In My opinion it could run like that all day. I dont think there was much room for much more load. The voltage was suffering. But if you look back to Feb 14 my estimate for loads was damn near right on The compressor starts at 10 A and climes to 11-12 Thus giving the elusion that the voltage was droping thus shutting down the test.But in fact It was holding.

Greg

 
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 08:55:06 PM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

quinnf

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2006, 09:22:34 PM »
Well, I am one, but not in a relevant field ;)

It looks like you might be suffering from the dreaded Governor Droop.  No, that's not what happens to old bodybuilders, and it has nothing to do with keeping your shirt on.

The voltage is dropping (probably) because your FuKing governor isn't doing its FuKing job (Did you say your Listeroid was a FuKing brand?  I might be wrong there.)  With that kind of a load on it, can you move the fuel rack and get the engine to speed up at all?  If the engine speeds up, you still have some horses in there.  Also, note the point where the exhaust starts emitting visible smoke.  When you get to the point where you start seeing smoke, that's the practical limit for your engine.

George at Utterpower.com has an inexpensive governor modification kit that should cure your droop.  It's only $10 at http://www.utterpower.com/governor_kit.htm
In fact, I just ordered one today (Geez, I'm sounding like one of Willem's alter-egos!)

Some other things to consider are the type of belt you're using.  If you are using a V-belt, expect at least a few hundred watts of loss there.  A flat serpentine belt would be a lot more efficient.  You said you were having a pulley machined, so maybe it is for a serpentine belt.

You say your gen head is only 2 years old.  Does it look like the one in the picture I posted above? 

Yes, when you load these engines up, they really don't complain.  You can hardly tell how much they're pulling.  Now compare THAT with a 3600 rpm genset!

Quinn
« Last Edit: February 16, 2006, 09:36:52 PM by quinnf »

Tom

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2006, 11:44:26 PM »
I really wanted a FuKing listeroid, sigh can't make any good jokes with Ashwamegh. Anyway Mr. X seems like your starting voltage is a little low. Try running up the governor until you get 130V at no load and you'll pull a lot heavier load before you get a low voltage situation. The standard util co voltage spec is 120V +- 6% which is 127.2 at the high end of the spec. You should be about there once you apply a load. 
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Mr X

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2006, 02:04:29 AM »
I was setting my PS govenor foe 117 118 because in ther my cycles are bout 64 when I raise my voltage to 125 my cycles are close to 70 . Get this why when I turn on my florecent lights do my cycles climbe. Yah I was thinking I had G.E.D. thanks for the diagnosis. No that gen in the pictures is way cool compared to mine my gen is red and square cornered looks modern. Check out the winco site Mine is a winco TB 4000.  And Yes I have a serpentine belt best system I have seen. And yes I just parked a disposible Honda 5 hp to put the gen on the Roid it ran in the next room and after a while the noise it put out made u want to go and smash it. My roid is in my shop with  no walls in between . Just exaust out side and I love  the sound of it lazing along  thou a bit loud.

Greg
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 02:12:34 AM by Mr X »
6/1 PS Jkson soon to run WVO,  3 hp Petter, 3 Honda 5 hp, 1 weed eater, Live off grid, Now a dog farmer

Tom

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Re: Torque, RPM, BHP and kWh
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2006, 02:19:17 AM »
I don't know about your gen head, but the ST heads can have be modified to use variable tap resistor in the field circuit to adjust output voltage. What are our cycles at when you've got a full load on the system. That should tell us whether you've got a bum generator or a lazy governor.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.