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Author Topic: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)  (Read 8330 times)

GuyFawkes

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"Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« on: February 08, 2006, 09:05:03 PM »
OK, whether or not you believe we are at or just passed peak oil, or think it is 10 or 20 years away, there are some things we can agree on.

1/ Global demand is rising, chinese want more, india wants more, and SUV's want more.

2/ Oil takes millions of years to make, and all the big finds are found, so sooner or later peak oil will happen.

Thing is, oil will never actually run out, the rarer it gets the more expensive it gets, at some point soon it will pass beer in cost per cc, then later it will pass whiskey, then later perfume, and finally maybe even inkjet ink (vbg) but that's the way it will go, so it will never be a case of "I cannot buy any" but "I cannot afford to buy it and use it at this rate"

Next thing is "oil" is not a thing, it is a vast range of grades and products, the more refined and higher quality ones will go first, lower quality, thicker, heavier will follow later.

Next thing is you don't need to run out, you don't even need to run short, all you need is to reach an economic tipping point.

For example, I have two cars, both are 20 odd year old Renault 19 non turbo 1900cc diesels, both were bought on e-bay for about 200 Uk pounds, both return 50+ mp(imperial)g

that blows away a prius, even if I could buy a prius for 200 Uk pounds

I know US diesel (and this site is after all mainly continental US after all) has a different sulphur content than european diesel, and that and other reasons like the historically cheap and historically low state / federal fuel tax duty means petrol is king.

Now, you may whine today (and incite the wrath of millions of jealous europeans) about current gas(oline) prices, but the fact is SUV's that make the ford fairlane 500 look economical still sell very well indeed.

So how about if we get a repeat of 1973, there is no genuine shortage of fuel, in that anyone who wants or needs to can fill up the tank, but the price per gallon just doubled?

Effectively the SUPPLY of "oil" is just as large as it was "last week" before the price hike, practically you and everyone you know will be making CA$H + pink slip swap offers to anyone with a 40/50 mpg euro style compact diesel

This is a "tipping point"

You don't care that you have gone from petrol / gasoline fuel to diesel fuel, both cost about the same per gallon, you only care because one vehicle does 7 mpg and one does 7 that, or 49 mpg.

All of a sudden everyone wants something that burns a lot less, we don't care what it burns because we count what it burns in dollars per mile, dollars per hour, or dollars per kilowatt.

Lister CS diesels are hugely efficient, ten gallons of fuel is a LOT in the sense that your lister will run for days

Genuine lister CS will also quite happily run on any old muck, the stuff no one else wants and no one else is fighting over, so OUR fuel is relatively speaking compared to everyone else, cheaper to buy and easier to find.

Use your CS to charge your golf cart and you'll be driving when other people are car sharing.

This (as usual for me long and rambling before I get near the point) is for me the point about these engines, a point that many of you, perhaps because we aren't at that tipping point yet, haven't seen.

You do not want to be making them do 750 rpm, then 850, then 1000, and so on, that is costing you efficiency, you want them chugging along at the design original of 650, burining fuel as frugally as a scotsman gives away whisky.

The point, for me, is not "oh I can burn biodiesel which is half the price of regular diesel", but "I can burn each gallon of fuel FAR more efficiently than in anything else you care to shake a stick at, and I can burn practically any fuel you care to shake a stick at, and therefore I can afford to use this engine far more than any other kind of engine, and thereofre I can get far more useful work done than any other method"

I guess it's not about prolonging the ability to live my life pretty much as I do today while ignoring efficiency, because I can beat the other guy in fuel cost per litre, but more about working smarter and more efficiently instead of harder just to stand still.

When I was on the boats we had customers with 50 foot boats who would tell me they NEEDED a 25 kilowatt generator, so they could run the water system, radar, lights, watermaker, air con, electric cooker and electric kettle and hifi, and still have enough for the wife to run her hair dryer.... madness

My 5/1 CS SOM is "only" 2.5 kilowatts, but if I use it EFFICIENTLY that is loads of power (for those of you who will moan about the A/C, I grew up in the tropics, ceiling fans use bugger all and are for my money more healthy than a/c, and kept us plenty cool too, save one small phase change unit to cool the beer) 15 watt energy saving flourescent bults instead of 100 watt filament bulbs, more insulation instead of more heating, DC battery banks and inverters to handle peak loads instead of an over specced generator that is mostly glazing its bores.

Not trying to start a flame way here, just genuinely interested if mine is the minority viewpoint on this or if I'm preaching to the choir.

cheers
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

kyradawg

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 09:24:53 PM »
Hey brother, it seems that you are more evolved than the average folk but I still dont know what the key is to inciting humbility in humanity something that is probably more rare in the US than europe. I guess that as long as the people we as a society look up to are as individuals living in 20 bedroom estates and driving 10 passenger vehicles that get 10mpg its gonna stay this way.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2006, 09:41:30 PM »
Well said Guy;
I get glazed eye looks from people when I try to explain Peak Oil.
I got interested in Lister(oids) because of the multi fuel aspect.
Because they have stand alone liners and CS plugs in the head, they are adaptable to various fuels, and ignition sources. I suppose you could adapt Direct injection heads if a certain fuel required it.
These are the 'Poor Man's Ricardo Lab Engine', and to me the ultimate shop project. As I get older, I have become more interested in what makes society work, and less interested in building another fast car. My little 'Stationary Power Plant & Engineroom' is my personal civil engineering project for a possible future. I am 50, and grew up during the 'Post Holocost Science Fiction' era, with so many stories based on people getting by on less. Current events indicate a possible fuel shortage. If it never arrives, I'm just a funny old man. If it does, I'm more ready than most. Meanwhile, I'm having a good time making new friends that think more like I do, and learning a thing or two along the way.
Scott E
P.S. Is it true that no problem is so great that it can't be solved with a suitable application of explosives? 8)
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Jackpine Savage

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2006, 10:00:11 PM »
Well said Mr. Fawkes! And if peak oil doesn't arrive in our lifetime there's still the threat of the mad mullahs and communists.

Right now I'm striving for self sufficiancy across the board, food, energy, etc. I'm expecting my 6/1 and 5K to arrive the end of the month.

BTW, since this is my first post, hello to all and thanks for the board!

Craig




GuyFawkes

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2006, 10:06:38 PM »
I'm not evolved, I'm a tightwad.

I'm also probably "ahead" of mainland USA in this because diesel here is (checks xe.com) 1.67193 dollars per litre, ford excusion suv 44 us gall tank = 166 litres = 277 bucks US to fill up, so basically the idea of running a vehicle that costs 277 bucks to fill up, and returns 7 mpg means I will me facing a choice of moonlighting as a rent boy in the blue oyster club or running something cheaperm like my renaults diesels.

The OTHER thing the US is ahead of us here in, but we are catching up, is the "suburbia" shit, where there are no local shops, no local services, no local public transport, no local amenities, no local schools and no local work, so you kind of have a choice between living off rats in a cave and working your guts out to consume vast quantities of energy travelling just to stay alive and out of a cave.

an old pickup loaded up to GVW with lead acid traction cells and a leccy motor, all of which is charged overnight or when not moving by a lister(oid) even with all the inefficiencies of that, will I reckon give an SUV a run for its money is dollars per mile, quite apart from purchase cost....

course you'll LOOK like a beverly hillbillie
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Procrustes

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2006, 10:16:48 PM »
Admirably well said, Guy.

I'm sympathetic to the peak oil theory for a couple of reasons.  One nation after another enters "energy debtor" status.  I believe England did as of 2005 for instance.  Second look at the size of newly discovered reservoirs.  They're haven't been any big discoveries since the seventies.

The arguments against as I recall them are 1) technology, 2) abiotic oil, and 3) the economy.  Number two is essentially that the earth produces oil without the aid of animal fats.  This is actually beside the point, as we are burning it faster than the earth produces it, whether or not there is abiotic oil.  Numbers one and three are related.  Many believe that the market will provide energy as demand rises.  This is true to a point.  We are vastly more efficient with fuel now than during the seventies, for instance.  However technology/market arguments miss the point: of course there's always energy available, but there is nothing that comes close to the energy return on a dollar invested in petroleum extraction.  So sure our society could produce lots of energy without petroleum, but as your return diminishes you pay a heavy tax -- you consume more and more of your output in energy production.  As a concrete example, manure, wood, and municipal trash contain much more energy than Canada's tar sands.  If our economy ran off of tar sand fuel, our standard of living would be a damn site lower.  Everybody believes in the free market now, but it can only allocate resources, it can't manufacture them.

GuyFawkes

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2006, 10:35:29 PM »
Luckily this is the general thread, cos I'm about to go WAAAY off topic.

I was in the lighting shop last week buying bulbs, and I saw this thing... it was one of these

http://www.weipro.net/images/dl8200b.jpg

so I bought it......

why?

well I took one look at it and the first thing that leapt into my head was "surface carburettor"

These things have a tiny titanium disk that oscillates at 1.7 MHz and literally vapourises the water, electrically, for mere watts of power.

Not much of an application for a diesel but a modern version of a flame licker or hit and miss motor....

thoughts?

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rocket

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2006, 10:40:22 PM »
i neither agree that there is an energy shortage or that oil takes millions of years to create. oil is a soup of hydrocarbons that occur naturally as part of the carbon cycle. the more we use the more is created. it isnt destroyed. the more we burn, the more carbon in the atmosphere. the more carbon absorbed by plants the faster plants grow (ask greenhouse owners about raising carbon levels). the more plants grow the more carbon in the soil. ethanol after all is plant sugars with the carbon bonds broken. all fuels are hyrdo carbon chains.. methane ethane cetane propane octane....

the second point is oil companies were making a profit selling oil for under $10 a barrel six short years ago before the oil money families assumed power in america.  now they rob us blind with $70 a barrel while outlawing free energy sources like nuclear power, which despite the oil propaganda is plentiful cheap renewable and safe.

there are vast reserves of oil that have been withheld from tapping in order to create a false sense of an energy shortage so that the oligarchy of oil families can continue their destruction of OUR wealth for their benefit. As we sit right now gasoline costs 17 cents per gallon in venezuala and 6 dollars in england. how can this be and do you now understand why people like pat robertson call for venezuala's president to be assasinated.

let us not fall for their lies of their contrived shortages, but let us call a spade a spade. they seek to control us and turn us into their serfs while they live fat off our labors as they keep free energy sources from us and sell the oil of this planet that they claim as birthright to us for their excess wealth and profit while reducing our families to poverty. I have a lister engine based genset to save my family from their cruelties
« Last Edit: February 08, 2006, 10:53:15 PM by rocket »

kyradawg

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 01:33:30 AM »
Rocket, I couldnt agree more!

The oil companies are vampires sucking us and mother earth dry.

If and when we run out of crude is a mute point to me because there are better fuels that can be implemented NOW.

Bio-based fuels Like rape seed oil (canola) takes half as much land/energy per gallon to grow than soybean and has a higher cetane rating (easier starting even in cold weather) and better lubricity (less injector pump/injector wear) than dino-diesel.

If farmers stopped raising cattle simply to turn into rotting dead flesh for our (gag) consumption and instead grew rape for diesels and corn (ethanol) for gasoline vehicles we could gain our independance from crude oil.

Enviromentaly we only stand to gain by implmenting bio-based fuel all the c02 released in combustion of bio based fuels is asorbed in the life cycle of the host plant.

Getting rid of the cattle rids us of the largest contributor of greenhouse gases. Please dont tell me that global warming isnt real in the mid east we have gotten a 1/2" of snow this year? WTF!

By growing our own fuel we take the power back and in turn put the profits in the hands of the gen pop rather than the "elite" few.

How many more folks have to die in the quest for oil disguised as terrorist hunts or humaniterian efforts.

Brothers PLEASE burn as little crude based fuels as possible.

I currently run my truck on waste veggie and have made my own reflux collum still to produce fuel ethanl to run my lawn mower on.

If anyone would like any help getting off the junk please message or email me.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

GuyFawkes

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 01:53:37 AM »
i neither agree that there is an energy shortage or that oil takes millions of years to create. oil is a soup of hydrocarbons that occur naturally as part of the carbon cycle. the more we use the more is created. it isnt destroyed. the more we burn, the more carbon in the atmosphere. the more carbon absorbed by plants the faster plants grow (ask greenhouse owners about raising carbon levels). the more plants grow the more carbon in the soil. ethanol after all is plant sugars with the carbon bonds broken. all fuels are hyrdo carbon chains.. methane ethane cetane propane octane....

the second point is oil companies were making a profit selling oil for under $10 a barrel six short years ago before the oil money families assumed power in america.  now they rob us blind with $70 a barrel while outlawing free energy sources like nuclear power, which despite the oil propaganda is plentiful cheap renewable and safe.

there are vast reserves of oil that have been withheld from tapping in order to create a false sense of an energy shortage so that the oligarchy of oil families can continue their destruction of OUR wealth for their benefit. As we sit right now gasoline costs 17 cents per gallon in venezuala and 6 dollars in england. how can this be and do you now understand why people like pat robertson call for venezuala's president to be assasinated.

let us not fall for their lies of their contrived shortages, but let us call a spade a spade. they seek to control us and turn us into their serfs while they live fat off our labors as they keep free energy sources from us and sell the oil of this planet that they claim as birthright to us for their excess wealth and profit while reducing our families to poverty. I have a lister engine based genset to save my family from their cruelties


dude, not wanting to get in a flame war or anything, but...

my old man was chief engineer for south east asia for P&O logistics group that supplied all the rigs out there with stuff like drill pipe etc, before that he was in tin mining in malaya, and after that coal mining in what was then zambia, so I grew up in oil and engineering, and hung around geologists and oceanographers and shit.

repeating what was told to me, all oil (and all coal for that matter) is always found UNDER rocks that are millions of years old (sure, some sometimes weeps to the surface through fissures, but the reservoirs are UNDER old rock) and there is a direct correlation between how old it is and how good it is, old good coal is anthracite, younger poorer coal is lignite

(any of this is wrong or a misinterpretation or simplification, blame me and my memory)

so unless you personally discovered oil laying under rock that is only thousands of years old I'm gonna go with what I "know"

-----------------------------------------------

carbon is an element, and it makes a compound with many other elements, and lots of natural processes do this all by themselves, but it is slow and very few of them result in anything you can burn in an internal combustion motor.

------------------------------------------------

nuclear is IMHO the only hope for humanity over the next 50 years until we get fusion on commercial scales.

thing is, petrol and diesel are simply amazine fuels, they are INCREDIBLY cheap to get per gallon, especially in the starting phase of production before peak oil where all you do is drill a hole in the right place to get a gusher

petrol and diesel are also incredibly energetic per pound, and being liquids are incredibly cheap and simple to bunker (store and transfer)

------------------------------------------------

there are still vast reserves but my opinion is we already used half the oil there is, trouble is demand today is higher than ever in history and still rising, so something is going to give.

yes OPEC got greedy in 1973, and yet 86% of fuel cost here in the Uk is tax, still doesn't change the paragraph above

-------------------------------------------------

the real problem is not all oils are the same, the sweet saudi crude was honey, the north sea oil for example was shit, great for making PVC, crap for petrol, there have been no new major field discoveries in the past 30 years, everything they have discovered is relatively small and, far worse, not primo quality for making petrol andd diesel

the nest big problem is the size of most of the saudi fields is bullshit, cos OPEC quotas were set in proportion to field reserve size, the instant this came in all middle eastern fields magically doubled in size...... smell a rat?

the next big problem is extraction, for some years now saudi has been having to pump water down to displace oil up, and many people say they have been doing this too fast, which is damaging the wells, in any eveny each extra barrel is costing more and more to extract, and is lower and lower quality, it's been some years now since saudi was the biggest oil producer supplying the USA for instance

iraq has about a quarter of the worlds remaining oil, iran has about a tenth, and about a quarter of the worlds remaining gas (as in LPG not gasoline) and the real reason saddam invaded kuwait in gulf war one was the kuwaitis were under drilling (angling the bores sideways) into iraqui reserves... I'm making no moral calls here about either gulf war or anything related or allegedly related, just telling it like ir is

----------------------------

you talk about "big oil", you'll miss the point, they are not oil companies, or petrol companies, or diesel companies, they are in the business of selling energy, and they are selling it in a form that we are junkies for.

I can turn on the telly and see jeremy clarkson ejaculating all over the completely stupid new W12 maybach 1000 bhp supercar, sure, anyone who can afford a million dollar car could care less if it ran on chanel number 5, doesn't stop practically everyone I know lusting after one so badly if you owned one and screwed their girlfriend they'd be happy to take a life from you and discuss her performance in bed....

they could spend ten times the money telling everyone injecting 2o lbs of silicone into your testicles (idiots do this stuff believe it or not) until they're bigger thn a football is a neat idea, and the only takes would be those who would do it anyway and those who need "warning, contains hot liquid" on a coffee cup

we LOVE petrol and oil, we grew up with it, so to us it's as normal and as much a god given right as oxygen

cept it aint.

----------------------------------------

I bought two of these
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1993-RENAULT-19-RT-TURBO-D-RED_W0QQitemZ4610876193QQcategoryZ9861QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
renault 19 non turbo indirect injection all mechanical engine systems diesels

I paid less than 200 uk pounds each, why?

because no one wants them... not flash enough, not fast enough, not fast off the line, not cool.

sure, "big oil" and "big motors" advertise and promote the hell out of their shit, but, the target audience just laps it up, can't get enough, they were born that way....

my dad had a dennis steam truck, he didn't thinks that way, his first "real" vehicle was a rudge ulster motorcycle


----------------------------

try and sell a bicycle to a chinaman now, he'll piss on your feet

he wants a lexus

---------------------------

dude, I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I'm not claiming that corporate "personalities" are anything other than psychopathic, and it's great you have a lister, but if you plan on using it to save your family, you'd better have weapons of mass destruction too to keep the hordes at bay while you have light and power and they don't

everything going on in the world is more easily explained by mass stupidity than the black helicopters you occassionally see

-------------------------

the way I see it, if I live another 40 years, the real challenges I will see society face are.

1/ rapidly decreasing economic viability of liquid petrol and diesel as a MOBILE fuel source.

2/ we can in theory nuke / electric everything static, if we start building fast enough, the longer we leave it, the fatsre we will have to do it and the more (safety and efficiency) corners we have to cut (top tip, the UK is already in the shit in exactly the same way as someone credt carded and mortgaged up to the hilt, it's only a question of time till the red letter lands)

3/ hydrogen is NOT a fuel, you goota liberate it from water, its a bicth and expensive to bunker compared to petrol, and you just doubled the installed nuke capacity required to make it

4/ battery powered, no matter how efficient, is NOT a fuel, you just doubled the installed nuke capacity required etc

5/ "renewables" are a joke, the entire UK renewable capacity for the last five years won't power one medium sized aluminium plant for one month, I don't plan on living on lentils and wearing animal skins any time soon

6/ "biodiesel" is a joke, unless you plan or turning the globe into a fuel farm, and I don't plan on giving up meat and veg and running off duracells instead

7/ our real problems are efficiency, or lack of it, currently the US citizen is king of per capita energy usage per year, but the rest of the planet wants the same as you guys and you guys don't want to live on lentils etc

8/ in the real world, see SUv sales, NOBODY is going to get more energy efficient unless you squeeze them financially until they have no choice, that will happen all by itself, for me listers and old cars that cost nothing and so 50+ mpg is just a way of staying ahead of the curve without working too hard.

9/ closest I'm going to get to a political statement, middle east, nigeria, russia (see that shit about the gas pipeline last week?) and south america, they have energy reserves under the ground, we want them like an addict, shit is going to happen, we'll get them, but the process will increase the cost per kwh

10/ I had a graph, could post it here if you like, world trade centre day, the main UK electricity grid output over time, you should see the MASSIVE spike when everyone picked up the phones.... telecomms systems use 10% of Uk electricity, no telecomms, no civilisation.... you got packet radio on long wave and a computer and fuck off big antenna running off that lister buddy, come back? what's your 20?

11/ hate to say it, but the only thing I can see that will take the pressure off is something like a global flu pandemic that wipes out 20% of the population

------------------------------

bottom line on all this, listers aren't going to save you from anything for more than a few days, however, what you LEARNED from playing with listers could well make you one of the most valuable people around if the shit hits the fan

I live in the UK, and guns are illegal, so the whole survival thing is a non starter here, population density is too high too, and apart from the obviosu engineering parallels between gunsmithing and enginesmithing, and the popularity of gun ownership in the states, I'm willing to bet there's a disproportionately high number on "gun nuts" on these forums, cos owning an running a lister now is like the story goes.......

(the story)

two guys, one sound guy and one camera guy, in africa, filming lions, both dressed for it and wearing heavy jungle boots, after a while it becomes apparent one of the lions is going to charge and eat them for dinner

both guys look at each other and get ready to run for their lives

then the sound guy squats down, pulls off his boots and starts putting on his trainers

camera guy starts laughing "you'll never outrun the lion in them"

sound guy replies "I don't have to outrun the lion, just you..."


--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rpg52

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 02:19:47 AM »
Well Rocket, I can tell your opinions are strongly held, but IMHO many of your contentions are not supported by any independant information sources that I am aware of.  In my opinion, the world continues to operate as it has in the past: 
1) petroleum forms from plant residues (fats)  baked at specific temperatures underground for millions of years until tapped by smart and lucky geologists/drillers.
2) Plants do grow faster with increased carbon dioxide, but that doesn't really have a lot to do with petroleum in the short term. 
3)  Economic systems are not logical, but respond to politics and other factors, and petroleum like other commodities may have ups and downs that, while influenced by individuals or families, can only be "controlled" to a limited degree in relatively open western economies. 
4)  Nuclear power is neither safe, renewable nor cheap, and belongs in the sun, 93 million miles away from me, at least. 
5)  How 17 cent per gallon gas in Venezuala and $6 per gallon in England makes it ok to assasinate the elected leader of Venezuala, I really do not understand.  Maybe Pat Robertson does understand it, but he hasn't explained it to me yet.
6)  If your Listeroid is going to save your family from any kind of cruelty, more power to you. 
Please take these comments with a bit of humor, as they were given  ;D
Going back to the topic as raised by GuyFawkes (great handle by the way, for those who get the joke), I've been following the peak oil  topic for quite a while, and preparing for it all my adult life.  (getting out of debt, raising my own food, etc.)  You are preaching to this choir of one, but I'm always ready to hear about others with the same perspective.  I would be inclined to use the various alternative energy sources, but my home already had grid electricity, so I invested in conserving it so that my electrical bill is $40/month.  I would love to buy an old, fuel efficient car to add to my collection of old cars, but there are few available here in the US.  I have been saving a 40 year old VW parked in my barn, in case gas tops $5+/gallon, but haven't needed it yet.  My Listeroid will be used to (quietly) generate electricity for a sawmill I am building.  The mill itself will be run by a much louder diesel engine, but for trimming and planing boards, the Listeroid will provide the power.  More than anything else, the process of preparing the engine and running it is quite fun, and it is a project that I actually look forward to working on.  Plus, seeing it run seems to have the same effect on many other people, making them open to different ideas and perspectives.  May the sun shine on you and cause you to smile.   :)
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

WWIProps

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2006, 02:32:30 AM »
Darren,

What do you use for feedstock in your still?

I am thinking about making one but don't have a lot of corn up here in Maine to feed the thing.

Scott

kyradawg

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2006, 03:49:57 AM »
Guy,

Dude it so fuckin sad that we drain the earths vital tectonic plate lubercants its simply earth blood letting :'(.

Like you said its deep within the ground where god never intended us to be!

Those spirts are meant to be serving a different porpose.

I think you are underestimating the volume of land the we have available to us for fuel crops in the US. Think about how much fuckin cow feed we grow alone!

Scott,

Feed corn is the way to go due to the high sugar content but any vegetation with 2%+ sugar would be viable!

As far as breaking down the sugars to make available to the yeasts here is a good source

http://www.novozymes.com/cgi-bin/bvisapi.dll/solutions/solutions.jsp?lang=en

Any biomass can be used but requires breaking down of the starches with hydrocloric acids
which to me brings an unwanted caustic nature.

P.S. If you would like plans for an automatic still that produces 190 proof on the first and every run let me know.
Peace&Love :D, Darren

GerryH

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2006, 04:46:30 AM »
Hi Scott E,
Yes it is true, you can solve anything with explosives. I know I make my living with them.

Try this site, while you worry about peak oil.

http://www.vialls.com/wecontrolamerica/peakoil.html

Oil control in the hands of the West is peaking, that's all

Gerry

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: "Peak Oil" and the economics of various fuels for a lister(oid)
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2006, 09:17:11 AM »
Methane hydrates form at 300 meters and deeper in the world's oceans. The US has enough for CENTURIES of domestic power.
A large methane release off Florida's coast millions of years ago caused ocean temperatures to rise as much as 12 degrees, it is believed  to have killed about 80% of the sea life.  That sounds alot worse than the cows Darren is so worried about. There were no people around then to blame it on.
Methane is almost 3 times worse than CO2 as a green house gas.
It's our grave responsibility to burn this Methane and convert it to CO2, thereby saving the planet.
Listers can be made to burn methane.
Global warming (on the other hand) may be the result of measurably higher output from the Sun. It is wanning now, and solar experts are predicting a mini ice age like the one that cooled the earth from 1300 to 1840. Bummer. Must have been hard to grow food.  Not much left for fuel crops. This may be the end of the best and warmest time for a few centuries, instead of the beginning of a global warming cycle....go figure. Don't overinvest in your world view mantra.
Germany used the coal from the Ruhr valley to build an economy and war machine that defeated France in 1870, and laid waste to Europe in WWI and WWII. They still have at least 2/3 of the original coal reserve left. I understand they are mining about 3 miles down. Coal economies are not to be ignored. China has a huge reserve. USA and England have alot.
Any industrial process that needs heat will adapt to the available source, they always have. It will not be the end of the world, just a shift of priorities and practices.
Close down your buggy whip factory before you go broke, make your best guess for your next career.
Speaking of WWII, People did prove to be resourceful. Producer gas powered trucks, busses and tractors, more than one million vehicles in Europe according to some sources. England was still rationing in 1952, long after Americans had forgotten about it.
The Doomsayers do not have faith in humanity, fortunatly humanity does not care. I don't see huge breakdowns in society; the New Orleans Super dome was not full of murder victims etc. After the TV news hype, the truth came out: those people were much better behaved. Also the disaster was not that deadly; the regional death toll was only 1/10th of the prediction.
Scott E
« Last Edit: February 09, 2006, 09:21:19 AM by SHIPCHIEF »
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's