Author Topic: A Petteroid that fires once.  (Read 8795 times)

drmuqdad

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A Petteroid that fires once.
« on: July 21, 2007, 08:00:52 AM »
Hello everyone...

Nicely and smoothly, after a 2 minute no-load period, I turned off my 10/1 petteroid connected to a generator head after a smooth and nice 1.5 hours run. 8 hours later it is behaving like this: crank turned normaly with the normal "ringing" sound of fuel at the injector until I release the valve when it fires once, and only once, before "ringing" disappears and so there is no more firing. This is reproducible i.e. when I repeat the procedure, ringing is normally high again, and it remains high no matter how long I continue no-compression crancking, but when compression occurs at the release of the valve lever, it always, and I stress: "always" fires but one firing and the sound dies again and everything decelerates to a dead halt. To be accurate, before the dead halt the engine managed to fire another single time. I tried to exhaustion. Air is well aspirated and this is rechecked two times. I havent checked the return outlet behavior yet, and I havent tried to examine the injector yet althoug I've just removed carbon "micro-chimnies" that formed around the nozzle openings the same morning with fantastic results on smoothness and dark smoke. My petteroid is- and forgive me because I know it is wrong- is on pure kerosene for about 30 - 40 hours now, nice and smooth.

I am waiting to hear from the experienced coz I'm the newbie here.

I'll soon post what I'll find upon checking the return output of the injector and probably the injection at the nozzle.

Regards

Dr.Muqdad

hotater

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2007, 06:08:04 PM »
Dr.

There is probably an air bubble caught in the hard fuel line somewhere.  Under compression it 'backs-up' the fuel in the injector and compresses the bubble.

Be sure the hard fuel line doesn't have a 'bubble trap' raised place in it.  Smoothly uphill is best.

Disconnect the fuel line at the injector and crank it over until clear fuel with no 'foam' comes out.  Retighten the connection WHILE cranking to keep a bubble from forming.

If that doesn't work it's probably out of time.

Keep posting!  Let us know.
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2007, 12:05:10 AM »
Hello Dr.Muqdad

Let us know if the problem was and air in the fuel system....

And if possible some pictures of your generating set, and what brand of engine and generator you are using.

Doug

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drmuqdad

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2007, 02:32:45 AM »
Gratitude for the concern everyone..

Yasterday I noticed that when the sound of "ringing" of fuel injection is attenuated when compression occurs, the trace amount of fuel spilt from the return outlet of the injector does not increase. It is also considerably less than what I've seen before during cranking. That directed me toward thinking the pump is failing to pump with enough pressure to overcome the pressure during the compression phase but only enough to pump against atmospheric pressure within the chamber when there is no compression.

I tore down the Mico branded injection pump, which is the first time ever I tear down a diesel injection pump.

I have now a great difficulty naming the parts I saw so that I can describe clearly what I found.

There was a very small and very thin shell -alluminum or steel I can't tell- disturbing the complete surface - to - surface touch of the two hollowed cylinders that can be reached by disassembling the upper part of the pump. This- I thought- was fairly enough to prevent the build up of necessary pressure. That solved the problem, although it solved it a little too far, coz after reassembling the injector, the governor lever of the pump now cannot slow down or stop the engine and it just runs away. It seems I missed stressing on remembering angular relations among inner parts during dissassembling. An expected "oops!!" for a first-time pump disassembler pediatrician, Right!!?? :-\ :-\ However, careful inspection and pressure testing afterwards led me to the exact angular relation between the pump main piston (the side-grooved piston) and its cylinder. It just surprised me how such a critical piece (the cylinder) is not angle-secured to the pump body with a fail-safe design using -for example- a gib??.

Doug.. Thanks for your interest, but sorry I don't have picturers yet. I'll tell you about the genset. It is an ST-7.5 Chinese alternator named Kaijieli rubber coupled directly to the 10/1 innominate Indian petteroid that seems deliberately made for the poor Iraqi market. The engine is air cooled, metallic gray in colour, and there is an after-painted name stamped to it saying Super-Delux (not Deluxe!!).

I'm using it within the small garden of our house in an urban area, and so this gravely needs attenuating sound and vibration. Fixing it to a concrete base created an earthquake-like in our home and some of the neighbours, and so I sacrificed some of the advantages of a sturdy base to putting the genset on rubber pads and accepting the artistic dance of the now freely moving beast. As for the sound, this needed a good hefty muffler and a sound attenuating cabin, each of which dragged a long list of ongoing problems I'll tell you about only if you wish to hear of them.

Dear hotater..thanks for the wish to help, The information you provided are very valuable to me, but I just didn't get what you meant by saying "it's probably out of time" in the last part of your reply, possibly because of my English...I hope you could clarify..

Thank you all...and regards..

Dr. Muqdad.

biobill

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2007, 09:34:33 PM »
Dr.
  I, for one, would love to here how you are taming the noise and vibration of that beast and keeping the neighbors happy. Is it used frequently?                          Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

hotater

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2007, 10:10:53 PM »
Doctor--

 *Timing* in my context, is the relationship between the position of the piston to the injection of the fuel.  Its' usually 18 to 21 degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC).   I'm assuming the Petter is the same, but you should check the manual or one more familiar with that model.

When the timing is retarded by only one tooth the engine might crank but it 'lopes' (like a horse in a canter) and sounds like a 'hit or miss' engine instead of a regular firing diesel.

I hope this helps.

Tell your neighbors EVERYONE should have a generator.  That way they wont complain about yours.   :)

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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2007, 12:20:07 AM »
Keep us posted Dr. Muqdad.:

We are all interested in how things work out for you.....

Our closest Member to you lives in Iran.
He may be close enough to talk to you by phone if you can't solve the govener problem.

Doug
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drmuqdad

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2007, 04:40:26 AM »
Hello everyone...I realy hope you are still there...coz I thought it is over and the problem solved... NO IT IS NOT..

After I reassembled the pump last time when I found the thin shell between the elements of the pump, and the machine acted just fine for a good two hours, I shut it down. A few hours later it refused to work, having exactly the same symptom of firing only one time and then miss all the subsequent ones until exhaustion. One time I crancked really hard and it fired another one time some 5 compressions after the first firing, and thats all!!

Desperately/naiaevely I hoped to find another shell inside the pump, but I didn't. This meant that removing the shell the first time was not behind its following fine operation, and it also meant that during the process I did something that made the machine work. What is this thing I don't know.

With hotater's theory of the bubble trap knocking in the back of my head, I inspected the apparent part of the hard line(because osme of its length is concealed within the air duct of the blower) and found that a long segment of it is realy flat. I made a little uphill slope, bled it vigorously, crancked hardly while disconnected at the injector, and tried....NO USE. The same persists. Just the first firing and that's all.

What to check..what to check..Ah!! yes.. the injector..

The injector was nothing but normally appearing and normally spraying. May be it is behaving differently under compression pressure due to an internal something...TEAR IT DOWN. It was clean, clear, with no features of wear at the needle.

Reassembled, installed, and retried....NO USE. Just the same first firing and thats all...

Next project...First I'll expose the full length of the hard line to check for leaks under pressure.
Second I'll disassemble the injector to recheck for the integrity of the thin copper washers supporting the elements hoping to find a kink or a crack.
Third I'll check the issue of the timing, although I know that the only way to lose timing is by the gears slipping between the cam shaft gear and crank gear. I thought this is impossible. Am I thinking right?? And tell me of the what, where, and how of checking and correcting of timing in a petteroid. I still didn't reach this far with my petteroid or any other petteroid.

Guys I really need your help here. Trial and error (buying and installing injection parts) is costy.

Waiting..

BTW biobill.. sorry for not meeting your demand at the meantime but I assure you as soon as my ill petteroid recovers I'll talk to you real details..pray for me!!

Regards..

Dr. Muqdad
« Last Edit: July 25, 2007, 04:46:27 AM by drmuqdad »

hotater

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2007, 10:46:19 AM »
Doctor--

You are correct that to be out of time the cam must have 'jumped a gear', but was it installed correctly the first time?

With a diesel engine there are only two things that are usually wrong:  Compression and fuel.

I would bet the problem is not in the pump or injector, but is in the fuel delivery line somewhere.

Also check the compression relief lever to be SURE the exhaust valve is seating all the way.

Please keep us informed.

OH, no need to crank hard and long and do a lot of work.  If the engine is correct it will fire and run on the first stroke.  If it's not right your sweat won't help it.    ;D
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

emerald

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2007, 02:29:37 PM »
I had the very same problem this monring. A Lister CS came in for attention and it too would fire once and promptly stop. All the usual things were checked and in order. I began to suspect the fuel to the injector, now remeber this was a genuine CS and had good quality parts.

When the owner told me a few others had checked this engine before me and none got it running, it set off alarm bells. I asked what they had done and I had to ask exactly what was done and what was touched. In the end, his engine now works and the problem was down to a gouge in the end of the fuel line where it enters the injector. It was leaking such a tiny amount each time it went under pressure that it was nearly impossible to see.

I changed out the whole line and she runs sweet as ever now. Dunno if this will be your problem, but it was a new one on me.

Emerald

Doug

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 01:42:28 AM »
Dr. Muqdad.

I know Mamad of in Iran has or can get Petteroid parts, he told me this some time back and parts are cheap he may be able to help you....

He is a very nice fellow and has been a great sorce of of information on Petteroids for me.

Doug

Here is his website
http://www.classicworkingengines.com/
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drmuqdad

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2007, 05:41:47 AM »
Thank you guys for being there for me. I am truely sorry I'm always late to you but it was my job that rules me. Not only my petteroid is ill, but there are lots of ill babies that need attention, you know. Today I'll try to to check for what you noted guys.

Dear hotater.. if gears were not installed correctly in the first time, wouldn't that cause the machine to act abnormally or not act at all for the first time?? or you mean there is a possibility of an on-off failure: in-time for a period and out-of-time for another?? is this possible?? I thought the gearwheels are fixed to their shafts using gib keys that prevent angular slip. Tell me if I need to check for this issue. I like to stick to what you had your bet on: the fuel delivery line, coz it is the least expensive and the least effort costing.
BTW.. A doctor has a sedentary life, so I need to sweat every now and then, not only to fire petteroids ;) ;D

Emerald.. Thanks for joining.. It appears things will lead to changing the fuel line.. I realy hope this works..

Doug.. I contacted Mamad of Iran but not for the supply of parts, because parts- Indian parts- are available here in Iraq, but I contacted him to involve him in the discussion. He is also a man of experience..

Thank you all. I hope I'll be able to tell you good news soon.

Regards..

Dr. Muqdad.

M61hops

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2007, 07:31:37 AM »
I doubt that the gears could slip, it would always be out of time if that were possible.  I can't help wonder what the fact it fires that one time could mean as a clue (if any)?  Could the pressure of combustion as opposed to compression change something?  I'm thinking that the that one firing stroke pushes air back into the fuel line or jams a check valve?  Thought is worth what you paid me for it?  Good luck!  Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Doug

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2007, 05:13:06 PM »
If the bolts hodling the Ip cover were loose the cover could shift andf alter the timing.
If the shims or IP pump are loose or loosen up I could see that becoming a problem.

Lots of places in a Petteroid that trouble could come from.

Doug
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drmuqdad

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Re: A Petteroid that fires once.
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2007, 05:28:17 AM »
Hello everyone... and thank you for your patience....

There are some good news, for which I want to send you all sincere greetings, but a special greeting should go to our "magic" hotater, who has put his bet on "the problem is in the fuel delivery line somewhere", and to emerald, whose notion helped solve the problem...

Thank you all...I've even recieved help through my email from a good "John J" who was passing by our forum reading the discussion...and I recieved support from the nice Mammad of Iran..
Thanks alot good people...

Gentlemen...I cranked, it fired only one compression and stopped...I changed the hard fuel line as is... the damn thing ran just fine...

It is the magic of your experience guys..

Just don't go, coz I am the stickiest pediatrician you'll come by, and because I am very new to the world of diesel engines...

You should listen to this:

When I tried to operate the engine a few hours later it didn't start, but this time even the first firing is gone!!

Lately, in the past few weeks I was having a feeling my engine is short of compression, and this time the loss of compression became so clear that I had to say it is behind the new problem.

It is either fuel or compression..isn't it hotater??

So I started to do things I hadn't reached before; I removed the rocker box and turned the flywheel...

Although English to me is a foreign tongue, but I managed to compose a piece of verse!! it says: If you listen to the hissin' you've gotta find what you're missin' (can be sang in rap style!! ;D)
so I listened, and the hissing is from the intake inlet...I put my hand on it, and closed a breather that is connected to it, and turned the crank...WOW!! the machine is sucking my hand, through a closed valve!!...What valve is this...Gouch Ya!!

I removed the valve block, cleaned the valves and their seats, grained them coarse and fine, installed them, and there is now no hissing or suction through the closed valves, but the compression is still low, although better than what was before the procedure.

To imagine how low the compression is, I want to tell you that I could- with a prayer of my own- manage to start cranking aginst closed valves from zero!! Yea.. you could certainly say why the machine is not firing.

Why there is no compression is something to be further investigated, but before that, I would like to tell you two things...
First, when the valve block was removed I noticed the cylinder lining is grooved- scorched; there were many groves running along the direction of movement of the piston.
Second, is a little story of what might caused "First" above..
Because my engine is in the front yard of an urban-style house having close neighbours all around, I had to attenuate its sound. I enclosed it within a cabin that is fan-ventilated. Because the project is not well studied, because the engine is air cooled, because the fan may be small for the job, and because we had days of hell-hot weather, the engine ran overhot to a complete stop several times during the last month. The last of these grave stops is the one that stopped the engine the last time after which the compression went critically low...

What might happen to a water cooled engine that runs out of cooling water under full load untill it self stops must've happened to my engine, and here is where I need you most...

Tell me of what I should anticipate to find and/or replace... and I welcome all your bitter criticals regarding the cruel torture I did to my poor little indy...

I think what I'll do next is to drain the sump, open a side window, and (listen to the hissin') to see for leaks across the piston rings...

Thank you very much...and you should forgive a newbie for his first mistakes, shouldn't ya :-\

Waiting..

Regards...

Muqdad