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Author Topic: heating the injection line  (Read 25764 times)

solarguy

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2006, 11:36:40 PM »
Dear Johny,

It would be fun to see your installation.

One thing I would be concerned about is the time it will take the wvo to go through the water furnace outside, then through the well insulated fuel line to the engine.  It takes a tiny amount of fuel to run most of these engines and depending on line length the transit time could be 30-60 minutes or more.

You could always put one of Fattywagon's injector line heaters on there for the final preheat.

Good luck and have fun!

troy

johnny williams

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2006, 04:33:16 PM »
Hey Troy
 I do not have this all set up as yet but am working on it my spare time that the wife does not take up. I will be using 3/4" PEX pipe due to my inabity to solder and lack of threading machine. The pex will bi insulated with foam pipe wrap with 1" walls. The final fuel filter is also heated with bypass water from the head. I will post pics ASAP.

solarguy

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2006, 07:57:05 PM »
I suspect if you calculate the volume of the fuel line vs the rate of fuel consumption, the dwell time could be hours with something as big as PEX.

Keep us posted how you make out.

Finest regards,

troy

johnny williams

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2006, 11:36:11 PM »
Hey guys sorry for the long time to update. I did change my plans just a bit. I used 3/8X.065 SS tubing instead of PEX. I ran the tubing inside of the insulation on the water return line. Stays GOOD AND HOT. No acurate temp. just VERY hot to the touch. The NAPA fuel filter, as I have said before, is heated with the bypass hose with 8 turns of copper tubing and then insulated with fiber glass w/ vinyl backing. I also have the IP line to the injector 1/2 assed insulated but it does stay very hot to the touch. Have ran all day today, after decarboning, and no problems at all. The water stove started out at 185* at 8:00 this morning and when last checked at 6:00 the temp was 205*. Will try to post some pics after4 the engine is in tis final working place.

iann

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2006, 08:51:44 PM »
At the moment I have a two-tank system and switch between diesel and WVO on start-up and shut down. The thing is the amount of dino I use to do this. I want to reduce my reliance on diesel.

Firstly, is it wise and possible to heat up the injector line and start up on WVO and where can I get an injector line heater in the UK?

Are these things usually 12v.

If it’s foolish to try this, any suggestions on reducing the amount of diesel I use to start up/shut down. Could I tap into the fuel line after the filter with the diesel but before the fuel pump (and maybe use a two filter system)?


Thx Ian
1953 lister CS 6/1, lister B, Villiers XIIc, Seagull 40+ outbourd

danalinscott

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2006, 09:35:14 PM »
It is possible to heat up the injector line and start on VO..but cold starting on VO may hasten ring land/groove coking. Not a big a deal in lister engines as auto and truck diesels.

The injector line heaters I use exclusively are available from:
http://lineheaterspecialists.netfirms.com/


I believethat they ship world wide at no extra charge.
Which is remarkable IMO.

Dana
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com

sined

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2011, 08:51:02 PM »
Greetings from Hogsback South Africa, I am in the process of setting up a LISTER SR1 with a Hoffburg alternator,
The engine starts easily when outside temprature is warm.
I will be needing some form of preheating when cold.
I have a 12 volt heating element that is designed to go into the flue of a small gas/propane fridge.
Could I use this to preheat the fuel line?
If I were to use a gas/propane torch, where should I direct the flame? On the aluminium air intake duct?
Any simple and successful ideas from you folk as to how I can start this LISTER SR1 easily when the temprature drops and the snow breaks the mains power lines?
We were without mains power for six days last snow fall.
So I don't want to break my arm next time the temprature drops trying to start a COLD Lister.
Many thanks
Denis

dieselgman

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2011, 09:12:06 PM »
The SR should be equipped with cold-start cups on each inlet port. You pour 1 tablespoon of lube oil into each cup and inject prior to starting up. This will raise the compression ratio to allow for colder temperature starts. You can also equip the unit with an air preheater element inside the intake manifold. This is common for cold weather modifications on this model. These have been detailed elsewhere on this forum or you can request further detail from me. Preheating fuel lines is not a good cold-start solution except for cases using alternative fuel types.

dieselgman
Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

Combustor

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2011, 01:13:34 PM »
Hello Sined,
                In earlier times we started tired old diesels in cold weather with a home made "flare".  We took something like a rolled up old woollen sock with a wire tie round it for a handle, poured a spoon or 2 of diesel on it and lit it up. Remove aircleaner and hold the burning flare over intake while cranking. The hot air and smoky diesel mix was usually good for a quick start. Put the flare on a clean surface and step on it to extinguish flame. you get a lot of starts from one old sock. These days most folk can find a propane torch to do the same job easier. You may need to make a holder for the torch if you are without an assistant. No substitute for heat on a cold engine. Winter grade engine oils make cold cranking a lot easier too. Light oils are fine in your aircooled SR in cold weather. It has no temp control, so keep it loaded for clean running.
        Regards,  Combustor.
Toys include- Lister CS 8/1, Lister VA SOM plant and some Aussie engines.
   "Old iron in the Outback" Kimberley, West Australia.

carbon-rod

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2012, 11:00:56 PM »
I am planning to heat my high pressure line up to around 150c as I hear that the viscosity of Veggie oil is about the same as diesel at that temperature, so hopefully it will provide for a nice clean injection and thus a cleaner burn with less carbon. My plan is to use Nicrome wire wrapped around the line and then use PWM to control the voltage to it and therfore the heating. The fuel will also be heated up above 100 degrees prior to entering the fuel pump which will allow any water to boil off (im hoping) into the atmosphere through some kind of an air bleed off that I haven't thought about too much yet...

I only have one question though, I am pretty sure it will be ok to heat diesel up to 150C but I thought I should just pose it to the forum as when I changeover from diesel to WVO I don't know the exact point where the HP line will be filled with WVO so I am hoping it will be ok to heat diesel up to that temp without causing any ill effects. What do you guys reckon?


Combustor

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2012, 02:48:59 PM »
Hello all,
           Let's have a think about what is happening to oil as it flows thru the system of something like our old Lister(oid).  We will need to have warmed it enough to get it fairly fluid prior to the injector pump drawing it in and pushing it up the line, so some preheater/exchanger will be needed. If this is warmed by the coolant, it will only become effective when the coolant is warm enough to ensure reasonable fluidity, my guess is around 60*c , say 130*f, and it will take some time to warm the cold body of the pump, which on a Lister is somewhat isolated from head and block. A bit of lagging round it may help to reduce heat loss, but the fuel volume passing thru the pump is small, so it will take a while. When the pump body has reached the above temp range it will be capable of handling the still slightly viscous oil, but you need to retain this heat just by INSULATING the injector line with foam tape etc, and then when the oil reaches the metal mass of the injector body now surrounded by a warm head, it will pick up further heat, and as it arrives at the nozzle which is in close thermal contact with the combustion chamber via its copper seating washer, the tiny shot of fuel will be hot enough to atomise at the nozzle tip. The final injection temperature of the oil will mainly be determined by the temperature of the lower end of the injector body and nozzle tip.  You can pre heat it to hell and it will still be injected at nozzle temperature. So change-over from warmup fuel depends on having the pump at least warm to the touch, as these old low speed pumps will handle stuff somewhat thicker than diesel, and there is not a lot of restriction for small fuel flows till it arrives at the nozzle tip, where it should be very close to head temperature. So for good atomisation and clean running I feel that switching to oil should not happen till the head is not too far below its normal loaded running temp range. We can complicate things with line heaters etc, but as long as we can retain most of the heat applied before and around the pump, the heat from the head and injector body will take care of the rest.  Just my observations on the subject,  Regards,  Combustor.
Toys include- Lister CS 8/1, Lister VA SOM plant and some Aussie engines.
   "Old iron in the Outback" Kimberley, West Australia.

AdeV

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2012, 04:19:05 PM »

My plan is to use Nichrome wire wrapped around the line


How are you planning to electrically insulate the nichrome wire? Bear in mind the injection line is metal, and less resistant than nichrome, so will preferentially conduct most of your current if you don't insulate...
Cheers!
Ade.
--------------
1x Lister CS Start-o-Matic (complete, runs)
0x Lister JP4 :( - Sold to go in a canal boat.

bschwartz

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-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

carbon-rod

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2012, 12:03:40 AM »

My plan is to use Nichrome wire wrapped around the line


How are you planning to electrically insulate the nichrome wire? Bear in mind the injection line is metal, and less resistant than nichrome, so will preferentially conduct most of your current if you don't insulate...


Good question, you can buy cheap insulation tape with good thermal properties to prevent it from melting

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-High-Temperature-Voltage-Insulation-Tape-Amber-W-8mm-/130508855319?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e62ef1817

I am planning to wrap this around the HP line, I am planning to heat about 150mm prior to entry into the heat, and possibly just insulating the rest of the injector line, I am thinking about using coolant to warm the fuel prior to pump entry, this way I can start and stop the system on diesel but only for a minimum amount of time (no need to let the actual pump warm up).

I think having the heaters on there is a good way to bring the temperature up higher than it would normally be, because even though the injector will warm the fuel up somewhat it won't be much above 80 degrees as you get cooling of the fluid as it travels along the HP line. I have seen a few tests around that test the viscosity of WVO at different temperatures and with different mixtures and putting RUG in there seems to thin it out but the only way to get it the same viscosity as diesel (my aim) is to heat it up to that temperature, I think the injector will cool the fuel down slightly but not right back down to the same temp as the head... maybe to 120C or slightly higher....

To others this might seem really messy and prone to failure etc, which it is compared to the original simple nature of the lister but I am also planning to put on an oil pump and electric governor etc etc so it doesn't matter if the system is more complicated as I would rather it be more automated instead... as for messy I'm going to seal it up and it won't look too unsightly the wires will simply get routed into the controller box that I build for it and that will be that.


carbon-rod

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Re: heating the injection line
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2012, 12:09:36 AM »
Hello combustor

You can pre heat it to hell and it will still be injected at nozzle temperature.

I tend to disagree that it will only be injected at nozzle temperature, I have read some experiments from people who have heated injector lines and they reckon that it makes a difference when it comes to carbon build up which mainly occurrs if the fuel doesnt burn properly (possibly too cold), once they install the heater then it burns a lot more cleanly. The main story that sticks in my mind is the one of the guy in the snowy cabin that runs his generator 24/7 he said after he installed the line warmer the carbon reduced significantly, I can't remember where I read it, it was on one of the forums. Although this might be true I don't think he had insulated his HP line though so maybe if he had have it would of kept the fuel warm enough.

Once I get my set I will definitely be doing some tests to see whether heating the line does make the system more efficient / effective at burning WVO... If the HP line only requires insulating and runs as clean as a line heated to 150C then that would be great.