what is number 4 diesel

[theboss]

Ok what exactly is number 4 diesel?? is it the one used in ships?? I am thinking to burn it in piston engines. Im sure it will be thicker than regular diesel. Probably needs preheating to thin it down.

[listeroidsusa1]

I don't know what #4 fuel is but my cat D8 manual says that #2 is a waste of money and recommends #3 oil. I suspect #4 is probably something like motor oil. Most used motor oil is used as boiler fuel and for large ship engines. The GM-90 engines run great on motor oil. I've ran it straight before. it starts and runs great in summer but needs preheating in winter until the engine starts, and then the engine heat is all it needs in North Carolina, but then again, our winters are pretty mild.

[rcavictim]

I don't know what #4 fuel is but my cat D8 manual says that #2 is a waste of money and recommends #3 oil. I suspect #4 is probably something like motor oil. Most used motor oil is used as boiler fuel and for large ship engines. The GM-90 engines run great on motor oil. I've ran it straight before. it starts and runs great in summer but needs preheating in winter until the engine starts, and then the engine heat is all it needs in North Carolina, but then again, our winters are pretty mild.

You don`t get issues with injector and ring coking with straight MO without added injector heat?  Is your engine DI or IDI?  How well do you filter your used MO prior to hitting the FI pump?

[haganes]

if you want to get a headache, try correlating marine use diesels to land use diesels to fuel oils.  they are the same and they are different depending on what the refinery/supplier wants to call it.  i go through this every time i fuel up. 

anyway, number 4 is thicker than 2 and is usually okay to be used in gensets.  the issue here is additives used, specifically if anti-gel compounds.  this will effect whether preheating is necessary.  in some countries i have seen truck drivers with fires under their fuel tanks to heat them up 'cause the #2 diesel had gelled.

regards,
captain steven

[mobile_bob]

i have set many a fire under fuel tanks to degell them in subzero F temps
it is amazing how much fire it takes to heat gelled fuel

it is also amazing how much fire it takes to even start to melt plastic hoses or wiring insulation in subzero temps.

and sending 2500 amps at 24 volts down 50 foot of 4/0 welding cable to a 12 volt starter on a 1693 cat at -20F
is a sight to behold.  you can see the cables laying across the ground try to align with the earths poles!

bob g

[rcavictim]

i have set many a fire under fuel tanks to degell them in subzero F temps
it is amazing how much fire it takes to heat gelled fuel

it is also amazing how much fire it takes to even start to melt plastic hoses or wiring insulation in subzero temps.

and sending 2500 amps at 24 volts down 50 foot of 4/0 welding cable to a 12 volt starter on a 1693 cat at -20F
is a sight to behold.  you can see the cables laying across the ground try to align with the earths poles!

bob g

Wouldn`t it have been less abusive to just shoot the owner of the Cat?  When you have to go to  that much trouble to determine where the earth`s poles are you ought to realize by the temperature that you are located very near one of them or the other.

Canadian winters in the arctic are just plain hard on mechanical equipments that have to run when it is cold and the folks that must get them started and maintained.  I`ve been there myself.

[Stan]

Been there done that also, -54 is cold no matter what system you use.  If I didn't have external quick plugs on the pick-up and on the tractor to hook together and let the warm antifreeze from the truck circulate around in the tractor engine for a few minutes, I would never have gotten it to start.  That system could maybe be adapted to Listers in the far north in the right circumstances.  Drive your vehicle up to the engine shed, hook up the quick connects for a few minutes and crank her up!
Stan

[rcavictim]

Been there done that also, -54 is cold no matter what system you use.  If I didn't have external quick plugs on the pick-up and on the tractor to hook together and let the warm antifreeze from the truck circulate around in the tractor engine for a few minutes, I would never have gotten it to start.  That system could maybe be adapted to Listers in the far north in the right circumstances.  Drive your vehicle up to the engine shed, hook up the quick connects for a few minutes and crank her up!
Stan

Stan,

You could leave the Lister running 24/7 and park your truck nose towards the shed so that the warm  lister coolant could be used through your quick connects to get the truck running when needed.  In such cold temperatures it becomes immediately clear that no fuel in means no heat out.  I have observed that there is so little heat generated when my 1.5 L VW diesel engine is operating at a high idle and no generator load that it makes very little heat.  So little in fact that a fellow would freeze to death siitting on it in -30 temperatures.

OK, I`ll bite.  Tell me why I should not buy a Toshiba laptop computer.   I own a Techra 8000 or something but did not pay money for it, it was  part of a trade dea for a tube amp.  It needs a new battery pack but otherwise works great on the AC adapter.

[theboss]

I am thinking about 20/2 1000 rpm unit to go completely off grid in summer. The only thing which puts that in my affordable range is the ability of burning sub-standard fuels . No-4 diesel is reportedly used in light to medium ships. I have an impression that 1000 rpm is a speed too high for burning no-4 diesel. Personally i like to keep rpm low for numbers of reasons. I guess with simple re-boring job of 16/2, i can up rate its power enough to generate 10Kw electrical power continuously. Perhaps as the supplier to do some mods for me before shipping.

From the specs, i guess all listers are made same. Power rating is just a difference of displacement and rpm. Is that correct.??

[haganes]

No-4 diesel is reportedly used in light to medium ships.

#4 diesel is not used in ships.  if you want to really confuse yourself read
                                   http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/marine/ci/fr/dfuelrpt.pdf.

as i said earlier, #4 usually is okay......but there is a wide spec tolerance allowed under the definition of #4 diesel.  Some #4 may well be too heavy.  hey, if it is cheap enough (internationally it is 1/2 the price of diesel) maybe you can blend it with #2 if your lister does not tolerate #4 well.  i am also pretty sure governmental enviromental groups would not approve burning #4 in a diesel engine.

regards,
captain steven

[unimogr]

My understanding is that D4 should be used in stationary engines that have a consistent speed and load for extended periods, locomotives and large gensets are applications that I know of.  I would guess this fuel is likely high sulfur too since it isn't used in anything that travels down a road so there could be issues if you try to stretch out your oil change intervals.

Jason

[theboss]

Yes D4 is high in sulfur but isn't that good for lubrication in diesel engines?? Person offering me the fuel says its No-4 and is sourced from sea port. Basically scavenged / stolen. Its darker and may be thicker than regular diesel. I wasn't able to spot any differences in viscosity, perhaps due to hot weather!!

[wirenutrob]

theBoss -


I have just got my 20/2 online only 4 hrs run time but my goal is to be off grid by July 4th and then work on getting my Metro 6/1 on line for the evenings power usage. I would like to hear how you are doing off grid, What engine you have, Fuel consumption. etc.....
Rob

[unimogr]

Sulfur is bad for diesels and bad for people too.  Back when they first dropped the sulfur limit (0.05% I think) the process the refiners used to strip out the sulfur also stripped out key lubricants from the fuel oil.  After injection pumps started to fail they realized their mistake and modified the process so that the lubricant was replaced.

All of my diesels were built between 1957 and 1980 and they all run fine on the low sulfur diesel, but I haven't run any ultra low sulfur diesel yet so I'll withhold judgement on that stuff.

Jason

Yes D4 is high in sulfur but isn't that good for lubrication in diesel engines??

[theboss]

Well also denser fuels have high energy density which means better fuel economy?? right??

Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel is slightly lighter than industrial fuel oil and is used in low and medium speed engines that operate at a constant or near-constant speed, such as stationary power plants or railroad locomotives. Even though Number 4 Fuel Diesel Fuel has an ignition quality similar to Numbers 1 and 2 Diesel Fuel, it is too thick to work well in a truck engine where the load on the engine is constantly changing and requires varying amounts of fuel to be injected into the cylinders.

with this i conclude, that IDI 650rpm lister will happily chug on no-4 diesel. Probably compression can be upped little bit to improve performance on thicker fuel and take advantage of extra energy in dense fuel.