Author Topic: Pulsating in singles cylinders.  (Read 17145 times)

Beewrangler

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Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« on: February 01, 2006, 04:19:42 PM »
  Do anyone have any information on pulsating of lights etc, in the single cylinder type engines? Is this something to be concerned with? I'm referring to the health of power tools, light ballasts, etc.   Thanks.

quinnf

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 07:58:41 PM »
Yes, that's a well-documented characteristic of these engines.  The Listeroid 6/1 has about 150 lb flywheels.  The Lister Startomatic had flywheels that, by all accounts, were about 300 lbs each.  The flicker you see coincides with the compression and power strokes.  During the compression stroke, the flywheel slows slightly as energy is transferred from the flywheel to the air charge in the cylinder which is heated by compression.  When fuel is injected and ignites, the power accelerates the flywheel slightly.  Then the engine essentially coasts for 1 1/2 turns before compressing the next charge of air. 

Because the 1800 rpm generator is driven from the large flywheels at a ratio of almost 3:1, whatever speed change there is at the engine flywheel will be multiplied by appx. 3 at the generator head.  If you're running a 3600 rpm head, make that 6.  That intermittent deceleration and acceleration causes a rapid voltage fluctuation which you see as flicker.  Turning heavier flywheels or adding one or more cylinders minimizes that flicker. 

As far as affecting other equipment, most power tools, at least the portable ones, have universal motors that are capable of running off very poorly regulated power (think jobsite generator from Costco and long extension cords).  Light ballasts can be another story since there are so many varieties, though I've never heard of any problems other than the flicker causing people to complain of headaches.  Short answer is:  probably no problem.  Computers and televisions might prefer to be run off cleaner power, however some folks say computer power supplies are pretty robust these days.

Quinn
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 10:01:31 PM by quinnf »

GerryH

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2006, 10:05:30 PM »
Quinn;
I agree with all the above, but here is something to check out. I have replaced the bearings on my ST5, and I machined a bearing driver out of 1.5"pipe, and after replacing the bearings and cleaning up, I thought about checking the slip rings. I threw the rotor into the lathe and dialled the rings They were out .027. Also the high spot was the same place on both rings, almost. This will cause brush float at speed and momentary loss of power, or increase of resistance, in the exciter curcuit. This will make a flicker.
Well, I cut them down to round and polished with 600 grit and they look good.
Anyone who wants to check this can beg or borrow a dial indicator and remove the brush cover band and set the dial onto a ring. Maybe yours are ok.

Gerry

quinnf

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2006, 10:29:53 PM »
Gerry,

Yes, as you correctly point out, there are other sources of flicker.  I was referring to the common 5 Hz flicker that is synchronized with the power stroke.  The flicker you describe would be about 30 Hz if one is running an 1800 head and about 60 Hz on a 3600 rpm head (which you'd have to be either a fish or an invertebrate to detect). 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2006, 10:36:20 PM by quinnf »

Tom

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2006, 10:59:14 PM »
Hi Quinn,

Your comment about the 3600 rpm generator head is quite pertinant to the discussion about a 7KW head from Norther Supply on the board. It seems one of these would be a poor match with a Lister.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2006, 11:26:50 PM »
Has anyone tried adding a flywheel to the generator?  Say a chunk of steel bar 10" diameter about 12" long, machine the pulley and a pocket for a taper lock bushing in one end to connect to the generator.  You would need a bearing on the other end to support the weight.  A flywheel at 1800 RPM is a lot more effective then one at 650 and being direct connected to the generator shaft would be better then on the engine with that rubber band between them.:)
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cujet

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2006, 11:54:54 PM »
I plan on adding a flywheel to the generator head. Truck flywheels are probably a good choice, and burst safe at 1800 RPM. However you must remember this adds to belt loads, as the gen pulse can no longer easily match the Lister. The start o matics had V belts with deep grooves. I remember reading that these deep grooves would alllow the belt to ride up and down in sync.

Also, looking at the ammeter and voltmeters, the flicker is in voltage, not amperage. A quality gen head with automatic (electronic) voltage regulation may reduce this flicker. By design, the ST head regulates voltage by RPM. So every power stroke gives a little spike of voltage. Some modern generator heads do not regulate voltage by RPM, and therefore MAY be less prone to the prob.

Chris
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quinnf

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 12:30:09 AM »
Andre, welcome to the board.

Before you consider direct coupling to a single cylinder diesel engine, especially one with such low speed (high torque), consider how the generator head is constructed.  Unless the head is built ruggedly enough to withstand the constant see-sawing action of the torque pulses, it may fly apart internally.  The subject has been discussed in the past.  Yes, adding a flywheel to the generator would be more advantageous than increasing the mass of the engine flywheels (KE=(MV^2)/2 and all that), however don't dismiss the advantages of driving a generator with a serpentine belt off a slow speed engine.  It solves a number of problems and does a great job of compensating for the not-very-constant flywheel speed. 

Quinn

GerryH

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 12:32:05 AM »
Quinn:
I got the gen back together and ran it and loaded it, then added a light. It does have a detectible flicker, but I don't find it offensive. I run florescents in the house which has no flicker anyway.

Gerry

quinnf

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 01:22:34 AM »
Gerry, that's what I've noticed.  It was visible but nothing to go Postal over.

I've been giving a look at my pulley.  It was machined from a 10 lb cast iron barbell weight.  It is "C" shaped in cross-section.  I have been thinking of getting an old cast iron frying pan and melting some lead on a propane burner (outside).  Carefully poured into the back of the pulley, that would provide additional rotating mass.  Anything you can do to increse the rotating mass of the genny should help. 

Ironworks

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2006, 03:03:39 AM »
Hows it goin?  I am new to all this stuff, but I can't peel myself away from this sight since I have found it.  I was thinking if there were some type of constant velocity flywheel between the engine flywheel and the generator it would absorb any deviation in rpm.  Not sure what you could use to try it.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2006, 02:07:37 PM »
Hello Quinn:

I had in mind direct coupling an additional flywheel to the generator shaft but still using a belt between the engine and the generator.  As Chris says belt loads may be greater as the flywheel on the generator will be driving the engine as it slows down between power strokes.  Could lead to some nasty belt slap.

A side note.
I just got a 6/1 a little over a week ago.  I bought the one that Troy, I believe also know as admin and rocket, was selling he, is about 170 miles from me.  I made him start it when I got there at 11:00 AM, temp was about 20°F but it had been down to about 0° that morning.:)  A little squirt of WD-40 into the intake as Troy was cranking it and it started right up.  I started it by my self the next day, still 20° but I cheated and put a burning propane torch into the lower coolant barb for about 5 minutes and then stuck the flame into the intake when I cranked it over.
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GerryH

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2006, 03:05:30 PM »
just the slightest whiff of ether.... ;)

quinnf

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2006, 03:56:44 PM »
Andre,

May I say you exhibit all the symptoms of someone having fallen in love?  Now wash your face and take a cold shower. ;)

Like I said, the flicker is a really minor annoyance, and depending on the lights you use, it may not even be noticeable.  Others have posted that compact flluorescents don't flicker, and that's been my experience, too.  You can always run your power through a power conditioner.  The old-fashioned kind are essentially 240 V to 240 V transformers.  I'm sure there's an electronic version now that works better.

The intermediate flywheel idea might be fun to cobble together, but it's really straining gnats to me.  These engines were designed almost 100 years ago, then modified for diesel operation a decade or three later.  The versions we have are almost unchanged from that time.  They're funky, anachronistic dinosaurs, with whirring spoked flywheels, twirling tappets, bouncing chrome pushrods, teeter-totering rocker arms, and a groundthumping power stroke.  I admire your spunk, and yes, it's possible to do what you propose, but as someone else pointed out, doing what you are contemplating is putting lipstick on a pig.  When you wake up the next morning and roll over to look at your love, don't be surprised if it turns out to be just a pig.

Happy wrenching!

Quinn



Doug

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Re: Pulsating in singles cylinders.
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2006, 03:19:00 AM »
You know.....
Thats why I quit drinking.

Doug