Puppeteer

Author Topic: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?  (Read 21025 times)

rocket

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« on: August 31, 2005, 01:50:12 AM »
i am currently waiting for a two cylinder ashwamegh. 650 rpm. i am worse than a kid at christmas, and have read everything i can find on them. i can't wait to tear into it. i will post pics when it comes.

rocket

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2005, 05:38:11 AM »
the trucking company says it will be in on friday.. the long wait is almost over. i will post pics as soon as possible.

mnlister

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2005, 02:27:48 AM »
I have a Metex 6/1. It cleaned up well and runs nicely. I pretty much tore it apart when I first got it and cleaned it up. Not much sand at all. It took awhile for the 1st start since the factory test fuel jelled up at 50 degrees and was blocking my diesel. You have to wonder what the heck they ran it on! The factory also backed off on the throttle so it wouldn't run even when I cleared up the fuel line. This is better than a runaway situation.  I don't know how well balanced it'll be since I haven't a generator on it yet and haven't knowingly brought it up to 650 rpm's yet. Since the counter-balances are cast into the flywheels and travel different distances than the piston/crank assembly, the engine should balance out at one speed only. I roughly calculated that at 650 rpm, the flywheel counterbalances need to be 25 percent of the mass of the piston/rod and crank. It's pretty tough to figure out the counterbalance weight when it's cast into the flywheel!!. At any rate, I like the engine but I hope to smooth out the vibration. The family calls it "Thumper" since it vibrates the cement slab in the garage. I'm looking forward to hear other owners experences.

Stevels

  • The Crisco Cowboy
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Computer geek gone low tech!
    • View Profile
    • My alternitive engine projects
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 03:05:01 AM »
Hey Rocket, Are you the same Rocket of Rocket Boy Aircraft fame?

I am getting my new Lister Tuesday, November 1. I plan to do the WVO conversion and generate with it.  I just finished converting my 1991 MB 350SDL to WVO and I am loving it!
Converting everything I own to run on WVO

quinnf

  • Guest
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2005, 09:07:09 PM »
Hi all,

It’s nice to have a place for Listeroid-heads to congregate.  Until now I’ve felt out of place hanging out on the old engine sites.  Hope the site attracts like minded folks.

After looking for a long time, I bought an Ashwamegh 6/1 from George this past May.  As soon as I got it home I tore it apart down to nuts and bolts (many of which I replaced), stripped the paint and plaster (!) filler, and removed the minor surface rust down to bare metal.  I then sanded and primed the castings with auto body primer, then topcoated with Rustoleum Hammered Silver spray paint.  It gleams like a pearl. 

Found some pockets of casting sand in the crankcase around the corners beneath the upper deck.  Removed them with a screwdriver, then rinsed the crankcase with paint thinner before applying a coat of red Rustoleum paint to all the interior surfaces to cover the damage I had inflicted to the factory-applied paint with all my scraping.  Then placed about 6 1” round magnets in the sump to catch ferrous metal nasties.  During final assembly I didn’t uncover any major defects with the exception of the piston wrist pin.  The pin had a considerable amount of casting sand in it.  Bad place for that to turn up, and it was fortuante I didn’t run the engine before tearing it down.

During reassembly it’s important to get the piston/head clearance right.  There’s a specification, something like 0.055” to 0.065”.  I took two small slivers of soft lead and placed them on top of the piston, then applied and fully torqued the cylinder head nuts.  After turning the flywheel a few times, I then removed the head and measured the squished lead pieces.  The cylinder base gaskets (mine had two) can be used to adjust that clearance.  Each is about 0.015” thick.  My engine measured about 0.070” which was so close, I didn’t bother to go back and remove a gasket.  If I were at a higher altitude, or living in a cold climate where higher compression is desirable, I probably would have done so.

I finished assembly on a steel assembly bench  I welded from 1 1/2” steel angle, and bolted the engine to the 3/4” plywood top.  After evicting a seemingly never ending stream of air bubbles from the fuel lines and injection pump, the engine finally caught when I cranked it over and accelerated smoothly to 600 rpm.  I had my hand on the fuel rack the whole time ready to shut it down if it started hopping around like the proverbial “jackrabbit on steroids,” but no need.  As soon as the fuel injector “pings” it’s time to pull the crank off the shaft.  In fact, I no longer use the compression release to start.  Simply back the flywheel up against compression, then crank hard a couple of turns in the opposite direction.  As soon as you get through the compression stroke and the injector pings, the engine is off and running.

I static balanced the engine using the procedure described on the CD.  My engine ended up needing 15 oz. of weight opposite the cast-in counter weights on the flywheels.  But when I wired that much lead to the flywheels and cranked it up, there was really no improvement.  I think a lot of what people perceive to be out-of-balance vibration is actually caused by the acceleration and deceleration of the flywheels during each power and compression stroke.  The engine mounts are only13” apart, and each power and compression stroke really wants to rock the engine back and forth.  Sitting on the assembly stand with only two ¼” steel bolts holding it in place, vibration was considerable.  However I found when I bolted my engine to its 3/8” steel angle bed which was bolted to a 4” x 6” timber frame it didn’t vibrate as much.  Then, when I belted the engine to the ST-5 generator the added mass of the rotor and shock absorbing properties of the serpentine belt smoothed it out some more.  Finally, when I applied a load to the generator and the engine began to work a bit, the vibration pretty much went away.  I wouldn’t set a wine glass on the fuel tank while it’s running, but it’s certainly acceptable, given that it’s a one-lunger.  And yes, you can feel each power stroke through your feet on the garage slab.  I think that could be fixed by placing some pieces of blown-out truck tire tread between the slab and whatever you mount the engine to.

So far, the engine seems to handle a 3800 watt load with only the tiniest amount of smoke.  I expect that it should handle about 10% more once the rings are seated and I finish the cooling system.  I got a radiator from Ebay for a 1995 Geo Metro for $79.  It’s about 14” square, with vertical cooling passages, so it should thermal siphon well.  I’ll run it unpressurized with a coolant recovery tank to act as both a sight glass and easy fill point.

Apparently George and Joel are no longer selling the Ashwamegh because according to Joel, “Ashwamegh doesn’t stand behind their product.”  Don’t quite know what that means, but with so many manufacturers out there, importers can pick and choose as they like. 

Cheers!

Quinn




Joe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2005, 02:51:16 AM »
I’ve researched quit a bit before committing to buy a 6/1 and a ST5 generator head from George. With the array of engines available and ideas on how to set them up his thought process seems most in tune with what I am looking for.  I’m counting on his extensive expertise to far out weigh the added cost of shipping the engine all the way across the country. I recently received an email that he won’t be back from R&R until 7 Nov and that the latest batch of engines is in. One of those in that batch has my name on it. :)
   
   My intent is to build/rebuild the engine/generator this winter and in the spring build a shed to put it in...another project...

   I definitely like the idea of using a tank for cooling water… however the thought of buying 20 to 25 gallons of antifreeze (to mix 50/50) has me leaning more towards a radiator.  I already have the radiator from a Chevy pickup sitting in the attic. Does anyone have any experience with this type of set up?  If I rotate the radiator (90 degrees) will it provide adequate cooling and thermosiphon using a slow moving box fan to drawn air across it and at the same time provide fresh air intake? 

I also hope this forum flourishes….I've been watching it for activity for a while.
Thanks,
Joe

Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

quinnf

  • Guest
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2005, 06:51:36 PM »
Hi Joe,

I've got a few minutes here and thought I'd reply.  If George is out, so it must be elk season.  I sent some pics to a relative and he's trying to get in touch with George, too.

I gave a lot of thought to different strategies for cooling.  A tank is simple, but it still dumps heat just like a radiator does, so you can save on coolant and use the radiator you already have.

The 6/1 doesn't burn enough fuel to need a very big radiator.  Flat out, it'll burn 1 quart/hour, so that's 130,000 btu/4 or 32,500 btu/hr.  Figure the engine's 40% efficient, so that means 60% of 32,500 or 19,500 btu/hr is available heat.  Then look at all those hot surfaces from the cylinder head down to the crankcase.  They're going to shed a lot of heat, especially with the wind from the flywheels blowing the air around.  So figure maybe 10,000 btu/hr, which is less than a small pluig in heater.  The truck radiator will have no problem shedding that amount of heat, and might not even need a fan to do so.

I'd think a good sized heater core should do it, but they are usually plumbed with 5/8" lines, so thermosiphoning with that much restriction might not work.  I thought of doing a plumber's nightmare using several tubes of 3/4" copper connected in parallel, like a miniature old-fashioned cast iron steam radiator, but after I got it down on paper I just said the heck with it and bought the smallest car radiator I could find.  As long as the coolant passages run vertically, it should thermosiphon well.  Don't know if a fan is needed, but the generator blows a lot of air, so if you don't mind the visual appearance you could duct that air with flexible aluminum ducting through the radiator and that might be enough.  I haven't attached it yet, still bench-testing the engine/generator. 

One caveat.  The engines that are sleeved, like mine, aren't designed to run with coolant under pressure, so plan on buggering up the radiator cap seal so pressure doesn't build up and blow coolant past the o-ring at the base of the cylinder sleeve.  I've done that and will place a coolant overflow tank above the radiator to serve as an expansion tank.  Evaporation of the water in the coolant might be a problem.  Might have to do something with copper to condense any vapors back to water to keep the system from boiling dry.

Well, back to work.  Hope you get your engine soon.

Quinn



Joe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 252
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2005, 02:16:36 PM »
Quinn,
You must be the Quinn of gib key removal fame...from George's CD...small world.

Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

quinnf

  • Guest
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2005, 03:23:33 PM »
Oh?   ??? I didn't know he put that on the CD.  When I got my 'roid back in May I immediately tore it down to nuts and bolts, and getting the gib keys out was a problem.  So I sent George my solution and a drawing with a note saying maybe someone can use the idea.   ;D

q.

Stevels

  • The Crisco Cowboy
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 50
  • Computer geek gone low tech!
    • View Profile
    • My alternitive engine projects
Ashwamegh
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2005, 02:59:49 AM »
 ;D

Hey All,

I got my Listeroid delivered to my garage last Wednesday  for a whopping $30.  It is an Ashwamegh 12/2.  I just uncrated it this afternoon, and I must admit, I am perhaps the most clueless owner of one of these motors. I am a computer geek by profession, and although I know a little bit about engines, and I am a mild DIY, I am scared!  Sure, I know a crankshaft from a drive shaft, but I don’t know the real differences between, say, bushings and bearings.  I just completed a conversion of a MB 350SDL to Vegetable Oil, and it works well – so I feel a bit ambitious right now!!  Whatever, like everything else we do, besides sucking, pooping and sleeping, I will learn it.

I am anxious to get the motor running, but I am reluctant to until I have a better feel for it.  I have George’s CD, but it is damaged and most of it does not play.  I assume that I need to go into the engine fairly deeply and check some stuff before I would want to start it.  I have no idea how I will cool it, mount it and run it, since I have no machine tools or skills.  I will make a second pass at the manual, but I still don’t know where any of  the controls are.

What was I thinking!!?  I don’t know, but man, I am psyched!  This massive beast looks like an old steam engine, and is damn cool! 

I am hoping that with basic Craftsman hand tools, I will be able to get this engine making some power.  Wish me luck!

Stevels
Converting everything I own to run on WVO

Mr Lister

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2005, 12:54:38 PM »
Hi Guys,

Greetings from across the pond...

I have 4 original Listers CS engines,   two are the 3/1  (3.5hp) and two are the 5/1 (6.5hp) when run at 650 rpm.   The 3/1 and 5/1 refers to the original spec from 1929 when they only ran them at 600rpm.  These engines date from between 1944 and 1951.

Here is an article written a few years ago that is a goldmine of information on rebuilding Listers

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Articles/rrchapt1.htm

Written by Peter Forbes, a stationary engine enthusiast in the UK.

His main site:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/spec.htm

Has a wealth of information on the original Listers .

I have my 6/1 mounted on a lightweight trailer so that I can haul it around the UK, or go out and collect other engines.  The trailer is fitted with the Lister 13" square mounting stud pattern, so the engine bolts down right over the axle.

I regularly run the engine on the trailer with the road tires absorbing some of the vibration.

I am devising a stationary mounting for a gen-set, and will probably use rubber mounts to give it some anti-vibrational properties.

One idea is to use rubber wheeled  castors (trolley wheels) about 6" diameter.  These are fitted to the base of the chassis and if locked in position with the brake lever will also help to stop the thumping.  These might be cheaper and easier than rubber mounts, and allow the whole assembly to be wheeled around the shop floor.

In the old days, Lister recommended that you cast a slab of concrete  28" x 48" x 12" deep to mount the engine and generator.  This slab should be isolated from the garage floor (ie on bare earth) otherwise the whole floor will act as a sounding board.

With regards to fuel consumption, my generator produces 2kWh of power from 1 litre  (0.264 US gal) of veg oil which I estimated to be a veg oil to electricity conversion efficiency of 21.2%.

This was using an 1950s dc generator and an electric kettle and thermometer to measure the load!  I will soon be adding a ST 5 alternator head to replace the old dc genny.

For ideas on the cooling system required - see this copy of the old Lister data sheet for the 6/1.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/51P3data.htm


regards,


Ken






quinnf

  • Guest
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2005, 07:31:58 PM »
Ken,

Churchill was right.  Great Britain and the United States are two countries separated by a common language! ;D

q.

rocket

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2005, 07:22:32 PM »
sorry, i am not rocketboy. i got my nick from playing baseball. the ashwamegh twin is stripped put back together and mounted on the frame with the st 7.5 kw genhead. runs nice. still working on a good supply of wvo. may be two cold and wait til spring. i will post those pics i promised soon. so far i am very pleased and looking at powering 24/7 as soon as weather and wvo supply permit

cujet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 960
  • Lister power rules!
    • View Profile
    • www.cujet.com
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2005, 11:36:39 PM »
I live very near to Bob of Rocketboy Aircraft Products fame. He has a nice setup with his 16/2 Lovson (really Power Annand) . As I mentioned in my other post, I have become friends with Bob, and get to play with alternative fuels and such that he tries in his Lister.

I have been over to his place many times when he was off grid. Especially after the hurricanes. It is interesting to watch the lister work. One thing I have noticed is that the lights flicker a bit with the lister. I believe it is due to the power stroke(s) causing a slight speed change. Meaning that there is not enough flywheel. Many have noticed this on the single cylinder listers also.

I liked his setup enough to order one of my own. There is no question in my mind that it is capable of providing many thousands of hours of quiet service.

My house is setup for gen power, and, of course, I used my gas genset to power the house after the last 3 hurricanes. What an interesting comparison between the gas setup at my house and his lister. I use twice the fuel and make well less than half the power. Plus all the noise of my gas unit and the 2 breakdowns. In comparison, Bob did have one injector line failure early on. However it was quickly repaired with a compression fitting and he was up and running again.

Like some of you, I am in the learning stage and only know some of the issues from Bob.

BTW, Bob is unwilling to let his engine run all night long. He is concerned about a fuel leak or such causing a disaster in his aircraft hanger. Can't blame him, as there is too much at stake. My suggestion is to make a generator shed for the lister and keep it away from everyone and everything.

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

Reno Speedster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
    • View Profile
Re: what type of listeroid do you have and how do you like it?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2005, 03:54:37 AM »
I just came across this forum and I'm pretty pleased.  I have a Ashwamegh 6/1 and a 5kw head which I got from George in the early summer. I have long since gone through the head (installing American SKF sealed bearings, painting it inside and out, insulating varnish, and properly setting up the brushes.  The enginehas been sitting, waiting for me to get to it.  I picked it up today and plan to start tearing it down over the long weekend.  I'm interested to hear thatsand has been found in the Ashwamegh (not a big deal as I wasplanning to tear it down anyway) and that George is no longer carrying them (this is the first I had heard of it).   I have a couple of questions for other Ashwamegh owners:  Does the timing gear have the stampings which have lead to the gear failures documented by Geroge?  How bad are the valve tappets on your machine? 

Morgan