Author Topic: Forced air heating with a Lister  (Read 20413 times)

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2006, 01:08:31 PM »
Nice idea, but I don't haver any saw dust, plenty of rocks and trees....

Doug

This on uses chunk wood, but that 120,000 rpm scream would get old fast.
http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/nt6/index.html
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Andre Blanchard

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2006, 01:48:50 PM »
An earlier piston version of that wood burning turbo it had some problems keeping the valve seal on the power cylinder but I suspect the ashes blowing thru that turbo won't do much for it's long term health.
http://stirlingengines.org.uk/pioneers/pion3.html
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listeroidsusa

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2006, 01:59:21 PM »
Several years ago when we were experimenting with converting turbochargers my brother and I bought 2 T-41 gas turbine engines from military surplus. Both ran great but the noise was quite loud. Spooling them up was always a thrill! Our engines "only" turned at 40,000 rpm and really drank Jet A. At low idle, 20,000 rpm, a gallon of fuel only lasted 11 minutes with no load. One disconcerting feature of these engines was the engine tachometer. When we got them we didn't know that the tach went around 2 times for 100% rpm. On our first start we spooled it up to what we thought was 100% rpm, but which was in reality on 50% rpm. When we turned on the main fuel solenoid it made another revolution of the tach so fast that you couldn't keep up with the needle. No time to run!! I think we both almost needed to clean out our pants after that run! Turbines are fun but they are also dangerous, especially with a potential runaway, as the centrifugal force increases with the square of the rpm. Have fun and play safe! BTW, that is truly an innovative setup.

Mike

Halfnuts

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2006, 04:26:09 PM »
RE: the Nye NT-6, that looks about as scary as some of the contraptions RedGreen cobbled together.

Remember, we're all in this together!  8)

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Andre Blanchard

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2006, 05:12:09 PM »
RE: the Nye NT-6, that looks about as scary as some of the contraptions RedGreen cobbled together.

Remember, we're all in this together!  8)

Halfnuts

That is one of his tamer projects.
http://www.nyethermodynamics.com/projects/index.html
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solarguy

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2006, 06:32:03 PM »
This guy clearly has talent.

A helicopter turbine stuffed in a speed boat should be quite a thrill to drive (pilot??).

I fully expect him to meet an unatural and violent end somehow somewhere.  I hope not, but I expect to.


Finest regards,

troy

Doug

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2006, 03:55:46 AM »
Yup seen it before (NT-6)

I had an intersting discussion about this exact iten with Doug Williams of Fluidyne Gassification.
http://www.fluidynenz.250x.com/

I wish I had kept his email and sugestion. But He basicaly said the Turbo isn't efficient enough to produce any usable power. Very clever man, sadly some smart ass poster at another forrum rubbed him the worng way and pressed him to try and reveal some secrets of his trade and he stopped posting and answerring emails on the subject of co-gen and gassification. Pitty, I'm hopping pictures of my copy of one of his designs with a few mods of my own will get a response from him.

Lesson here for all, don't piss off the grey beards and take what advice they give.

Doug

pigseye

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2006, 02:52:33 AM »
Hi Solarguy,
I appreciate your response.  I have a lot of wood on my property going to waste because I have no way to use it efficiently.  Unfortunately, after that's burned up, there's not much left I can get for free or is easily accessible.  If outdoor furnaces are so inefficient, I bet I could burn up this wood in a month or two if I really tried to heat my fairly large inefficient home with it.

If an outdoor furnace could be built for fairly cheap and I could extract some heat from it, this might still be a worthwhile project.  Just as long as my expectations aren't high.  Maybe a barrel stove and some copper coils hooked to a water heater and pump.  This would be in an an insulated shed. 

Other ideas to use up a limited supply of free wood?

Another question, How large of tank would be needed to efficiently use with a  heat pump?  This would probably work better with an in ground tank sort of a modified geothermal unit.  Would the tank just have to be tremendously huge to use it for heating and cooling?
 
Thanks,
Pigseye
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 03:07:32 AM by pigseye »

solarguy

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2006, 05:25:09 PM »
Hi Solarguy,
I appreciate your response.  I have a lot of wood on my property going to waste because I have no way to use it efficiently.  Unfortunately, after that's burned up, there's not much left I can get for free or is easily accessible.  If outdoor furnaces are so inefficient, I bet I could burn up this wood in a month or two if I really tried to heat my fairly large inefficient home with it.

If an outdoor furnace could be built for fairly cheap and I could extract some heat from it, this might still be a worthwhile project.  Just as long as my expectations aren't high.  Maybe a barrel stove and some copper coils hooked to a water heater and pump.  This would be in an an insulated shed. 

Other ideas to use up a limited supply of free wood?

Another question, How large of tank would be needed to efficiently use with a  heat pump?  This would probably work better with an in ground tank sort of a modified geothermal unit.  Would the tank just have to be tremendously huge to use it for heating and cooling?
 
Thanks,
Pigseye

A modern airtight EPA woodstove can be 60-80% efficient if you don't mind having a woodstove in the house.  If you want to heat water efficiently with wood, a Tarm brand wood boiler is amazingly efficient, and 5-7,000 bucks.  Only a "little" higher than an outside wood boiler and vastly more efficient.  A home brew system will be lucky to make 35% efficiency.  But hey, if you have access to lots of wood, that's less of an issue.  Low efficiency also implies high pollution.  My dad's neighbor runs an outside wood boiler and he often fills the whole valley with acrid wood smoke.

Efficient home brew wood burners are not impossible, but not nearly as easy as it "looks". 

Water tank sizing for home heating is based on need.  Compute how many btu's you need in a day.  One btu will heat one pound of water by 1*F.  Water is 8.3 lbs per gallon.

Heat loss in a house, or any other structure is:

BTU's per hour = (Tout -Tin) x (sq ft/r value)

You have to run that for every surface of the house, ceiling, walls, windows, basement walls and floors, etc.

Very illuminating,

troy

Good luck and have fun!

troy
« Last Edit: April 27, 2006, 05:37:19 PM by solarguy »

Stan

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2006, 03:30:47 AM »
Central Europeans nailed down wood heating centuries ago.  A guy with a restaurant here in Kimberley has a wood stove to heat his building.  About 5 tons of masonary bricks and morter, lots of nice shiny tiles on the outside.  Lots of passages round and round up to the chimney with a straight flue to start it then closed off.  He burns a wheelbarrow full of kindling in it in the morning, hot and fast and then lets it go out.  The thermal mass then heats his building for the rest of the day.
Stan

solarguy

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2006, 04:34:17 PM »
Righto Stan!

Sometimes these are knows as "Russian" fireplaces around here.  It took a long time to get them right, but they are amazing.  You can buy engineered cores, and hire a local mason to incorporate that into the middle of your house or living room.  It wants a good foundation.  Last time I checked, they were also 5-10 grand installed.  There's a lot of info on the web, so conceivably, you could design and build one yourself that works well and efficiently. 

The big trick is secondary combustion for all of these products, outdoor furnaces, indoor stoves, wood boilers, masonary heaters, etc.  Primary combustion is easy.  We've been doing that for thousands of years.  Light wood on fire, provide enough air.  A chimney helps.  As I recall, the upper limit on efficiency with primary combustion only is about 40%, and most are much lower.  A "standard" masonary fireplace here in the US actually has negative efficiency.  You lose more heat than you gain if you measure the whole house.  Awful terrible things. Exposed, exterior masonary chimneys would be against the law if I were the king of the world.

Secondary combustion is where you design an insulated secondary combustion chamber with it's own fresh air/02 supply.  When you get the smoke from primary combustion up around 1100*F and shoot some more oxygen in, the smoke itself still has lots of fuel value and will burn again.  With secondary combustion, you can approach efficiencies of 80% and no visible smoke comes out the chimney.  Much less pollution, burn literally half the fuel, etc.

It's not a trivial job to engineer that.  Scads of woodstove companies went out of business when the EPA started testing and rating stoves.  They just couldn't get that secondary combustion thing to work reliably. 

Some stoves even have a catalytic converter to reduce the ignition temperature of the smoke to make it happen more reliably.

Finest regards,

troy

Doug

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2006, 10:23:22 PM »
Thats where Gassifaction comes into its own, create a gas you can burn cleanly on its first pass. Trouble is you need a processed feed stock like chunk/chip wood, char believe it or not corn....

Doug

Halfnuts

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2006, 04:22:04 AM »
Thats where Gassifaction comes into its own, create a gas you can burn cleanly on its first pass.

Hmmm . . . something's wrong with that sentence . . . gas-pass,  pass-gas?  Hmmm . . .   ::)

Halfnuts

pigseye

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2006, 06:25:02 PM »
Hi Troy and all,
Great input.  I'm trying to avoid burning any wood indoors but have been intrigued with the masonry heaters, but the are expensive.

Any links on a DIY wood burning systems that have secondary combustion?  I'd like to learn more about that.

Thanks,
Steve

solarguy

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Re: Forced air heating with a Lister
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2006, 06:43:06 PM »
Dear Steve,

Sorry, no specific links.  I did a bunch of reseach 3 or 4 years ago and decided it just wasn't worth the risk and the hassle to end up with a moderately efficient stove if I'm very lucky.

The other problem is liability.  If you cobble your own together and have a house fire, your insurance company will laugh at you all the way to the bank for running non-inspected non-approved home heating gear.  Even if your device probably wasn't the culprit.
 :P

Google would be your best bet, but you'll read 100 sites that don't apply or are full of crap before you find one that has meaningful information with real data.

Finest regards,

troy