Author Topic: WVO VS Biodisel  (Read 8891 times)

carlb23

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WVO VS Biodisel
« on: April 23, 2007, 02:33:50 PM »
Hi,

I am just getting my Metro Listeroid genset straightened out and all is going fine.  I am now starting to investigate running it on alternative fuels.  I am looking for opinions on which fuel is better from a manufacturing standpoint and a running standpoint. I have access to WVO and I understand that even if i want to make bio-diesel I must first clean the WVO to a point that I could run it in my listeroid anyway. I understand that using WVO that i must start on Diesel or Biodiesel before switching over to heated WVO. Building a heat exchanger for the WVO is no big deal and I think this is my best bet but, being a newbie i would appreciate input from some seasoned veterans.

Thanks

Carl

lobosolo

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Re: WVO VS Biodiesel
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2007, 03:37:26 PM »
to make biodiesel out of WVO it is only necessary to filter it through a window screen ( about 100-200 microns), all other the crud will drop out when converted to bio.  It is better to dewater the oil to prevent making large amounts of soap.  Go to biodiesel infopop forum for more in depth info.  My personal opinion ( and I have an asshole also) is to convert the oil and avoid the hassle of switching from one to the other and heat exchangers, but then I plan on running my genset and truck on bio.  Good Luck.  Dan

SCOTT

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2007, 03:40:04 PM »
carlb23

I run mine on filtered and heated WVO.  If you decide to run biodiesel it will cost alot more to run, because of the cost of processing the wvo into biodiesel.  WVO works well in these engines, as long as it is filtered and hot, shoot for 180f+.  I suggest using a high temp heat rope on the injector line close to the head, these are avaliable at Mcmaster carr.  I and others have had luck with these heaters.
Good luck

Scott
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mjn

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2007, 05:13:04 PM »
There are plusses and minuses for each:

WVO downsides:
  • WVO must be carefully filtered and dewatered
  • engine must be modified
  • engine must be started on biodiesel or diesel
WVO upsides:
  • No need to deal with deadly chemicals (Methanol,NAOH)
  • After converting the engine, there are no ongoing expenses other than filters
  • relativly simple processing
  • no need to dispose of glycerine byproduct
Biodiesel downsides:
  • You need to store and handle dangerous chemicals
  • More complex processing than WVO
  • Disposal of glycerine byproduct can be problematic
  • You are still dependent upon "big oil" because most Methanol is produced by reacting natural gas
Biodiesel upsides:
  • No engine conversion necessary
  • Simpler filtration (Most of the debris drops out in the byproduct)

Personally, the need to store and handle dangerous chemicals tipped the balance in the favor of WVO.  My filtration process is nearly handsoff.  I dump a cubie of oil into the prefilter/dewater tank.  I use waste heat from my generator to heat the WVO to aid in dewatering.  At the end of the run, I pump from my dewatering tank through yet another filter into the generator fuel tank.
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

carlb23

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2007, 06:43:32 PM »
There are plusses and minuses for each:

WVO downsides:
  • WVO must be carefully filtered and dewatered
  • engine must be modified
  • engine must be started on biodiesel or diesel
WVO upsides:
  • No need to deal with deadly chemicals (Methanol,NAOH)
  • After converting the engine, there are no ongoing expenses other than filters
  • relativly simple processing
  • no need to dispose of glycerine byproduct
Biodiesel downsides:
  • You need to store and handle dangerous chemicals
  • More complex processing than WVO
  • Disposal of glycerine byproduct can be problematic
  • You are still dependent upon "big oil" because most Methanol is produced by reacting natural gas
Biodiesel upsides:
  • No engine conversion necessary
  • Simpler filtration (Most of the debris drops out in the byproduct)

Personally, the need to store and handle dangerous chemicals tipped the balance in the favor of WVO.  My filtration process is nearly handsoff.  I dump a cubie of oil into the prefilter/dewater tank.  I use waste heat from my generator to heat the WVO to aid in dewatering.  At the end of the run, I pump from my dewatering tank through yet another filter into the generator fuel tank.




When you talk about the engine being modified are just talking about a heat exchanger and possibly heating the injector line or something else?

carlb23

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2007, 10:38:12 PM »

Has anyone tried the Dieselcraft OC20 centrifuge to clean their WVO  I have seen them on sale for 219.00 which i thought was pretty cheap and all you need is a couple of poly drums and a pump capable of 90 PSI.  I think it can operate with WVO cleaned to 500 microns to start.

mjn

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2007, 12:12:03 AM »
When you talk about the engine being modified are just talking about a heat exchanger and possibly heating the injector line or something else?
Yes.  The "modifications" are all external, so they are not serious.  In a pinch I could put my engine back to "stock" in less than an hour.

Personally, I am heating the WVO prior to the injector pump with "hose on hose", and heating the injector line with a resistance heater.  I typically run about 190ºF to 230ºF at the injector.

Here is a schematic showing my modifications:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 12:46:43 AM by mjn »
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

Tom

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2007, 01:11:06 AM »
When talking about dewatering the WVO, what hydrogenated oils. I have about 100 gal of "creamy" fryer oil to deal with?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

mjn

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 06:21:40 PM »
When talking about dewatering the WVO, what hydrogenated oils. I have about 100 gal of "creamy" fryer oil to deal with?

In theory, the dewatering procedure is the same:

  • pre-filter to remove debris which holds onto water
  • heat to about 100ºF
  • allow to settle

In practice the "creamy" VO is harder to deal with because it needs to be heated before the "pre-filter" step.  As long as your entire system has heat supplied from pre-filter to the injector, then it behaves the same as the non creamy variety. If you don't have adequate heat on the filters then the creamy oil plugs things up.

After my dewater tank, I pump through a filter before filling the tank on my generator.  That filter is not heated or insulated.  In the winter if I am running the creamy oil, the filter nearly frozen solid after sitting overnight.  I have to open the drain on the bottom of the filter and pump warm oil through the filter to thaw it out so I can fill the tank.

About a third of my oil is "creamy".  During the winter, I save it up for warm weather processing and use. 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 06:25:00 PM by mjn »
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

Tom

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 11:41:02 PM »
Thanks for the info. I will use this oil in the summer when it is over 90 for weeks on end.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

mjn

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 12:50:19 AM »

Has anyone tried the Dieselcraft OC20 centrifuge to clean their WVO  I have seen them on sale for 219.00 which i thought was pretty cheap and all you need is a couple of poly drums and a pump capable of 90 PSI.  I think it can operate with WVO cleaned to 500 microns to start.


There is a huge 55 page thread on the dieselcraft centrifuge over at the infopop forum.  You can read it at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/2001011761.

I have not read the entire thread, but it does appear to work in removing debris (and water to some extent).  (It seems that much of the dewatering is happening because of flash evaporation as the oil exits the spinner jets.)
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

captfred

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Re: WVO VS Biodisel
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 12:45:01 PM »
Does anyone have any experience with Davco filters?  They sound like a good idea as part of the WVO heating process.

Cheers, Fred