Author Topic: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics  (Read 71571 times)

biobill

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2007, 12:35:34 PM »
RC
 A similar thing happened here in NY when National Grid, a British consortium, bought out Niagara Mohawk. I'm told they "negotiated" a hands off agreement with the Public Utilities Commission. A lineman friend of mine told me that they concentrate on large transmission lines as they are the most profitable and largely ignore distribution. Most of the company linemen and equipment are gone. As a result, blackouts are more frequent and last much, much longer. And, naturally, those who purchase their services are paying more. It's interesting to see the local impact of foriegn investment.  But....Home Depot is selling lots of stand by generators and I've noticed more interest in solar electric systems, so it's all good, right? ;D
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biobill

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2007, 01:12:03 PM »

Scott,
  To my way of thinking, making a billion dollars without actually producing anything useful is inheriently  wrong.  I know,  I know, the money. But it's not production, it's manipulation. And believe me, I'm not  innocent. I was a broker years ago. Produced lots of paper and numbers in columns but nothing of value. I was able to convince myself that I was a facilitator for a time but  the reality was that I was a leech. Profiting on the labors and investments of others because of my connections. Just couldn't do it any more. Still have friends and family in the business, makes for great beer drinking conversation.
  Couldn't quite decipher the comment about government control but that's not where I'm at at all. My vision for a sustainable future is community sized enterprises that would reduce transportation costs and be more responsive to local needs. Not so many zeros on the ends of the numbers to be sure, but a more realistic system than the one we have IMHO.
                                                      Bill 
                                                         
Off grid since 1990
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2007, 03:32:19 PM »
Rmchambers

I too live in CT and have seen the rates go up pretty fast. 

I view this as an opportunity, not a problem, any time there is a change from the norm there is opportunity.  To take a wide angle view, renewable energy and conservation are now mainstream, and new businesses are created daily to take advantage of this.  At the risk of sounding grandiose, this trend is MUCH bigger than the internet revolution, everything we touch and activity we engage in requires energy.  If rates were low people would not think twice about conservation.  Now that electric rates are high and gas prices are high everyone and their brother is concerned about being green and using less energy.  CF light bulbs are now being produced in large enough quantities that the prices are coming down, this would not be the case if electric rates were low.  Energy is a scarce resource and as it is depleted the price goes up.

The state (ct and many others) are actively encouraging distributed generation with grants and low interest loans.  If you take the time to learn the system it is possible for you to get a near free solar installation at your home.  The state (ct) will pay $5 per watt of solar installed; there is also a federal credit of up to $2000.  Take the system below:

http://www.affordable-solar.com/zia.5kw.solar.home.htm

The equipment cost is about $5.26 per watt, after the state rebate you pay .26 per watt which is .07 per watt above what I pay now.  These have a 20+ year life span, it will not take a long time to make back your investment and still be ahead of the game, even assuming no increase in rates.  Your total out of pocket cost will be the cost of installation + .26/watt.  The way the rebates work is that the installer gets the rebate from the state, so you do not even have to pay him up front for the total cost of the system.
If you are concerned about cash flow, you can apply for a low interest rate loan.  The savings in electric costs more than pay for the principal and interest of the loan. 

As far as the political discussion goes, everyone is entitled to their view, no mater how wrong  :)

Scott
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rmchambers

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2007, 04:10:15 PM »
Thanks for the link Scott, I'll check into it.

I know you're not too far from me, I still have to swing by sometime and see your setup, so much stuff going on at the moment (including replacing a car that was flooded by the Byram river in Greenwich last weekend - argh).

I think long term that distributed generation is the only way we are going to minimize grid outage type losses of power.  Lots of small options be they solar/wind/water or Listeroid burning renewable resources.

RC

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2007, 04:12:23 PM »
Scott I work for A company that makes over a Billion a quarter and can't find holes deap enough or fast enough to hide the money.....

They manipulate prices and markets.

I mean nothing, I am a cost.

They will screw me in the end, hopefuly I can return the favour.

Its not that people in power are evil, its just the capitalist system. Greed make the world go around.

Doug
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 05:38:28 PM »
Doug

Quote
I mean nothing, I am a cost.
I bet the work you do is worth at least $500k per year to your employer, probably more.  I am assuming you are responsible for keeping their electrical components in good working order.  A shutdown of the mine of any significant length of time would cost them many times what they pay you in lost production. 

Quote
They will screw me in the end, hopefuly I can return the favour.
Come on Doug you only live once, why be so jaded?  I am sure your company does not spend time thinking of how they can screw you. 


Quote
Its not that people in power are evil, its just the capitalist system. Greed make the world go around.
Greed by its definition is not good.  Capitalism relies on ambition to succeed, and there is nothing wrong with wanting to do well.  Granted some do get caught up and exhibit greedy tendencies but I think by in large most people do not.


Quote
They manipulate prices and markets.
As far as your company manipulating prices/the market, I find that highly unlikely.  In a commodity market there are simply too many competing interests for one player to influence the markets in any meaningful way. 
What is it that you mine there?

Scott
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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 12:26:15 AM »
Yes in a perfect world I would be an asset, but production makes money, I produce nothing and am a cost.
Sadly this is exactly how my employer shows me job on a graph....

One lost shift is more than 500 K.....

Doug

Hey it doesn't bother me, and I am not jaded. They get what they pay for and I squeeze them for every dollar so we're even (cept for the strike of 03 they still owe me 10 grand for that when they tried to take the drug plan for me and the pensioners among other claw backs).

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rpg52

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 01:03:32 AM »
 This give me a chance to air my own pet peeve about "Corporate America".

Ostensibly corporations are individuals in the eyes of the law.  (As a result of an action by the California Supreme Court regarding a difference of opinion between Contra Costa County and Southern Pacific railroad in the 1880's.)  Fine, except that corporations never die (Southern Pacific has metamorphosed into Sprint, the phone company.)  If corporations possess all the rights of an individual, (freedom of speech, etc.) but cannot be put to death for their actions, the People (in caps on purpose) should possess the right to revolk their corporate charter if they are found to be conducting business in an unethical manner. 

Where is the responsibility to the People (and the rest of the natural world) if a corporation can pay off politicians, dump their garbage for the rest of us to clean up, break unions and then walk away?  Yeah, we can sue them, who do you think can afford the best lawyers?  Life isn't fair, but any group of people that can rig elections with a pile of money has an unfair advantage IMHO.  Down off the soapbox now.  Ahh, I feel better already.   ;)

Ray
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rmchambers

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 01:19:30 AM »
Yes in a perfect world I would be an asset, but production makes money, I produce nothing and am a cost.
Sadly this is exactly how my employer shows me job on a graph....

One lost shift is more than 500 K.....

Doug

Hey it doesn't bother me, and I am not jaded. They get what they pay for and I squeeze them for every dollar so we're even (cept for the strike of 03 they still owe me 10 grand for that when they tried to take the drug plan for me and the pensioners among other claw backs).



That's true for a lot of occupations (like mine).  I'm in IT, computer networks specifically.. and unless you work for a network type carrier (verizon, at&T etc) then running a network isn't your core business.  I work for a company that bottles and sells spring water.  That's the core business.  So the whole IT department I'm a small cog in are viewed upon as a necessary evil needed to support the core business.  That is until something breaks down and then they realize how the IT department makes their lives much easier.

What I do like though is that my job is the same no matter which company I go to.. I'm like a generic Rajkot flywheel, I can run on anyones Listeroid that needs my type of expertise.  I do like to think of my contribution as a tad more refined than a Rajkot flywheel though  ;D

RC

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 02:16:51 AM »
I like to tell people I'm the shift plumber and I don't know a damb thing about electricity.....

Doug
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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2007, 03:21:06 AM »
One of the really great things about American capitalism is that you can buy into it as much as you want.  If you want to make a billion a year you can live in NYC and hedge funds,  and work 120 hr weeks.  Blue collar jobs for those who are happy punching a timeclock for 40hrs a week and nobody bothers you on your day off.  Get a skill that's in demand and you can name your hours, and to some extant your pay.  I've pretty much worked part time and spent most of my life doing things I enjoy.  I work to pay the bills and buy toys.  This system is not perfect, but I really dont care what the CEO is making.  He doesn't have a life, only a job.
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haganes

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2007, 06:52:52 AM »
corporations have no heart and no soul.  they do not hate, they are not vindictive.  good and bad things are done in the process of making money.  most officers who run companies understand the law and do not break it themselves but allow underlings with purposeful lack of oversight to do the dirtywork. 

corporate rules are made by governments.  all share the common failures of vested interests, greed, and corruption.

having said this, i can know of no better system which works.

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biobill

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2007, 02:41:59 PM »
Quote from: SCOTT
  If rates were low people would not think twice about conservation.

  Ain't it the truth. You might think that a highly evolved species like the human race, the developed nations especially, would have the fore sight to recognize that their civilization/lifestyle is utterly dependent on a diminishing resource and would be making a concerted effort to implement alternatives. To date we've managed the earth's "energy inheritance" in much the same way a crack head would manage Grandma's loot.  But I suppose in time the market will prevail. Seems so silly though, as a citizen of the worlds biggest debtor nation, to be  spending  hundreds of billions and countless lives fighting over oil when that money could be invested in things that have a far better long term return.   

Quote from: SCOTT
As far as the political discussion goes, everyone is entitled to their view, no mater how wrong  Smiley

Well dang Scott, that's two things we agree on ;) We'll have you marching in the streets and banging on the gates before you know it. ;D
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phaedrus

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2007, 07:08:49 PM »
Better system? Ummm,well, depends what's of value to a fella. There are examples. People in Cuba have lower infant mortality and live longer that 'murkinz, so....   "That won't last" you say? Maybe not, but exponential growth in a closed finite system is an oxymoron, and it can't last. And the past is often prologue - so Cuba, whether it lasts or not, may well presage the period after the coming difficulties. Consider it an echo from the future. What's obvious is that humanity is heading fast into a train-wreck. Nothing much to be done about it 'cept to enjoy the show by living through it. If one puts matters into their true form and looks hard then it is visibly logical that corporate and junta-based criminal gangs ought to steal whatever they can as fast as they can, while the stealing is good, so to speak. The Bushcheney junta trying desperately to prop up a moribund system, however briefly, is also logical - it prolongs the period of opportunity for them. However, one does tend to speculate on what value money, which is apparently their "god", will do 'em after the wreck.

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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2007, 01:14:45 AM »
Right now Cuba has one of the fastest growing ecconomies in the Americas. I believe its above 7%....

Largest trading partners China and Vensuala ( butcher the spelling of that, and I don't care lol ). Trade with China doubled last year.
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