Author Topic: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics  (Read 71550 times)

biobill

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Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« on: April 21, 2007, 10:08:07 PM »
 Another shinning example of corporate America's values.

 http://nbb.grassroots.com/EPA_AskTheAdministrator_Details/?lk=5253840-5253840-0-26468-j7-Ia3j3/ugoRq4rf3J/jr9-fu94F1zI

                                         Bill
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2007, 02:54:25 AM »
Bill
What exactly is the problem you see here?  What is it htat you find offensive?  I as an owner of various public companies (and anyone who has a pension or 401K) expect that these public companies do everything in their power to maximize returns for shareholders (you and me).  That is their fiduciary duty, and nothing less than their best efforts is acceptable.  If this goes to the next level and the courts find that they do not qualify for the blending incentive then they do not get them. 

Personally I do not think they should get the credits, but as a shareholder I expect them they try.

Scott
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biobill

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2007, 01:57:26 PM »
Quote from: SCOTT
  What is it htat you find offensive?  I as an owner of various public companies (and anyone who has a pension or 401K) expect that these public companies do everything in their power to maximize returns for shareholders (you and me)
 
 No, not me. I won't be a part of it.  What you said is exactly what I find so offensive. "everything in their power to maximize returns". Nothing matters but the almighty dollar and anything in the way is expendable. People, communities, countries, social responsibility, ecosystems,  environments, fairness, truth, are all secondary to the persuit of money. We were all a bit smug back in 91 when the Soviet Union fell apart. Capitalism triumphs over Communism! Didn't really notice that it was doing a number on Democracy too.

 So here we have two huge corporations trying to "get the money" that was intended to help the fledgling biodiesel industry. And thats OK?
                                                      Bill   
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2007, 02:39:25 PM »
Bill

If you have a pension, 401K, mutual fund, etc you are likely invested in public companies.  It is the OBLIGATION of these public companies to maximize profits for shareholders.  It is also their obligation to work within the law to do so, this is assumed but let me state it another way:  one should expect any public company to do everything in their power to legally maximize returns.  By the way I don’t believe anyone has suggested Conoco or Tyson is doing anything illegal or underhanded.  They submitted a plan for producer credits that was (after review) approved. 

So what is the problem here, a big company has teamed up with another big company and developed a new process?  Would the objection be so loud if it were a little company from your home state that teamed up with Tyson?  The fact is that in order for these processes to make economical sense you need scale, scale with inputs which Tyson offers and scale with production capacity which Conoco offers.  Without the scale each offers to the other the project would not be worth the effort. Conoco is using production assets and technology it already had, this is not something a startup is going to have available.

What is the downside to this project?  A new use for slaughter house waste is found and more fuel is supplied to the country?

Quote
Nothing matters but the almighty dollar and anything in the way is expendable. People, communities, countries, social responsibility, ecosystems,  environments, fairness, truth, are all secondary to the persuit of money.

The upside is that new jobs are created for people in the community,  Conoco and Tyson are acting as socially responsible corporate citizens, the ecosystem is bettered by removing waste from the waste stream, environmentalists should be happy waste is reduced. In terms of fairness any other company large or small could have embarked on this type of project, but none did, Conoco and Tyson were the ones willing to take the risk as such they should reap the reward.  I would be willing to bet that this project yeilds a lower ROI than the vast majority of those Conoco works on.  In that respect they are infact doing their part to help the enviornment, and without the credits it probably not happen because it would cost too much.  Please understand they are not doing this because there is a huge amount of money in it, they can make more in a day pumping oil than his project will make all year.

The worst case scenario is that every gallon the Conoco/ Tyson project produces displaces one gallon of oil from a country hostile to the United states!

Scott
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wldhoss

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2007, 04:48:00 PM »
YEP, You can trust your car to the man who wears the star.  Big oil is your friend, Bull Shit!

rmchambers

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2007, 05:19:36 PM »
Sure, and we all knew that once biodiesel and the like became even more than a minor irritant to big oil that they'd jump on it and turn around and claim they were being green.  What this proves is that the middle class is now paying big oil (with their record profits) $1/gallon extra for this to be made.  And the sad thing is, it's not biodiesel, it's heat cracked animal fat.

Short of a popular revolution  I don't know what will turn this country around.

RC

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 07:38:41 AM »
 
 No, not me. I won't be a part of it.  What you said is exactly what I find so offensive. "everything in their power to maximize returns". Nothing matters but the almighty dollar and anything in the way is expendable. People, communities, countries, social responsibility, ecosystems,  environments, fairness, truth, are all secondary to the persuit of money. We were all a bit smug back in 91 when the Soviet Union fell apart. Capitalism triumphs over Communism! Didn't really notice that it was doing a number on Democracy too.


you have every right to be skeptical about motives and potential consequences.  but just because the devil is doing it does not make it wrong.  people, companies, and governments doom themselves when they make wrong decisions.  things must be analyzed on its own merits.

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okiezeke

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 08:40:54 AM »
Bio What??
Its really kind of an underhanded compliment that the BIG boys are jumping on the bandwagon.  Even tho they are not doing it to help the environment, They ARE going to take a waste product and turn it into fuel.  These big bad boys certainly do not need any (more) federal money, but with big oil running the country, it's not the surprise of the year.  We voted the bastards in, we can vote them out.  Hopefully there will still be some federal support for the grass roots folks.  Like it or not, we live in a country that provides freedom for everybody who can afford it.  Our elected representatives are bought and paid for by the likes of Tyson/Conoco.  Still don't know anywhere else I want to live.
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biobill

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2007, 01:54:45 AM »


Quote from: Scott

If you have a pension, 401K, mutual fund, etc you are likely invested in public companies.
Not guilty
Quote
It is the OBLIGATION of these public companies to maximize profits for shareholders.
This is what makes me so crazy, the fact that we have a system that encourages the exploitation of people and the depletion resources so the next quarterly report looks good. Does humanity as a whole benefit? Living conditions improve? Are we ensuring a better life for our children - Better bank the maximized returns, the kids will need it to buy water!
Quote
  It is also their obligation to work within the law to do so,
Or to rework the law to do so if they have enough clout. I'm reminded of the agribusiness effort a few years back to neuter the organic standards on food  so consumers would be unable to tell the difference between industriorganic and true organic. But no matter if they can't get convenient  laws, They'll just move to another country where the laws are more accomidating. Sorry about the jobs, but the shareholders expect maximum returns
Quote
this is assumed but let me state it another way:  one should expect any public company to do everything in their power to legally maximize returns.  By the way I don’t believe anyone has suggested Conoco or Tyson is doing anything illegal or underhanded.  They submitted a plan for producer credits that was (after review) approved.
I may be a bit cynical, but with the current administration I'll bet they weren't sweating the approval. The way I understand it, Conoco/Phillips already has  refining capabilities in place and Tyson has a byproduct with a negative value. Doesn't seem like they really need the taxpayer support does it? With their deep pockets? (but then there's the shareholders  and the executive's salaries and bonuses to consider) The incentives were intended to help start up's like Brian Appel who's doing virtually the same process but from the ground up, and biodiesel producers also starting from nothing. Not as more corporate welfare.
Quote
So what is the problem here, a big company has teamed up with another big company and developed a new process?
Seems like Brian has done most of the development work.
Quote
Would the objection be so loud if it were a little company from your home state that teamed up with Tyson?
Absolutely not. If a small start up from any state made a deal to haul Tyson's or any other meatpacker's garbage to turn into fuel  I'd be all for it. And if they're investing in production equipment, then the incentives would be justified in my opinion.
Quote
The fact is that in order for these processes to make economical sense you need scale, scale with inputs which Tyson offers and scale with production capacity which Conoco offers.  Without the scale each offers to the other the project would not be worth the effort. Conoco is using production assets and technology it already had, this is not something a startup is going to have available.
Agreed. At this time, with my limited knowledge of the process and it's environmental implications, I'm all for it. Just not the money grab. Wonder why they're just starting now?
Quote

What is the downside to this project?  A new use for slaughter house waste is found and more fuel is supplied to the country?
well there is the national debt and the use of public funds to further enrich the already wealthy but that aside I'm all for it.

Quote
Nothing matters but the almighty dollar and anything in the way is expendable. People, communities, countries, social responsibility, ecosystems,  environments, fairness, truth, are all secondary to the pursuit of money.
Quote
The upside is that new jobs are created for people in the community,
though far fewer than by start ups IMHO
Quote
  Conoco and Tyson are acting as socially responsible corporate citizens,
I'm sorry, Tyson and "socially responsible" do not belong in  the same sentence
Quote
the ecosystem is bettered by removing waste from the waste stream, environmentalists should be happy waste is reduced.
agreed
Quote
In terms of fairness any other company large or small could have embarked on this type of project, but none did,
well, actually they did.
Quote
Conoco and Tyson were the ones willing to take the risk as such they should reap the reward.
and they will I'm sure. I suppose Conoco will use the stuff to meet the renewable fuel mandates with minimal investment and a dollar a gallon from the taxpayers. Wonder what they'll call the blend? I hope that they're required to label it accurately. Might make vegetarians avoid biodiesel if the named are similar ;D
Quote
  I would be willing to bet that this project yeilds a lower ROI than the vast majority of those Conoco works on.
I'll take that bet for a dollar. How do we find out?
Quote
  In that respect they are infact doing their part to help the enviornment, and without the credits it probably not happen because it would cost too much.
So by embarking on a venture that may yield a lower ROI (and I'm not conceeding that it will) than what they are accustomed to, even though still profitable, they become good stewards or the environment? Lets face it, the CEO and the board make an OBSCENE amount of money. Do you think ever discuss cutting back to a simply huge salary and put the savings toward some humanitarian purpose.
Quote
  Please understand they are not doing this because there is a huge amount of money in it, they can make more in a day pumping oil than his project will make all year.
Agreed, this takes care of that annoying renewable mandate so they can get back to making real money. I can hear the bonuses adding up.
Quote


The worst case scenario is that every gallon the Conoco/ Tyson project produces displaces one gallon of oil from a country hostile to the United states!
And that is good. Wonder why those guys don't like us?

  This issue is a real hot button for me. Not my intention to offend anyone.   Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2007, 02:42:54 AM »
I want to build a plug in hi brid charcoal powered "Dougy bugy". Just so I can snear at gas stations and plug it in a work and stick it to that ma as well lol.

Doug
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2007, 03:16:33 AM »
Biobill

Wow you have some strong opinions, and a rather obvious dislike for “Corporate America.”

For you to associate a Pension, 401K, and ownership of a mutual fund with the word “guilty” leaves me all but speechless.  I suppose one could rely on the pathetic returns of social security for retirement?

It seems that you prefer a system where people just put in their time at work with and the State decided what is "fair" and how to allocate the collective wealth.

The reason this country is so great and so many want to come here is because every citizen is guaranteed the same opportunity.  The outcome is up to the individual.

Please don’t begrudge those that have put forth the effort and have done well.

……….And now back to the regularly scheduled program…..Old style compression ignition engines!!


Scott
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Doug

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 12:21:20 AM »
Quote:

"The reason this country is so great and so many want to come here is because every citizen is guaranteed the same opportunity.  The outcome is up to the individual."

Your country is a house of cards with a wind storm in the mail. So is mine......

You and I mean nothing to the money men and I learned this in places like soup kitchens and picket lines.

Doug
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SCOTT

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 12:51:51 AM »
...and the beat goes on

Quote
Your country is a house of cards with a wind storm in the mail. So is mine......

You and I mean nothing to the money men and I learned this in places like soup kitchens and picket lines.

More of the same "us vs. them" attitude which in the end will get you (the collective you) nowhere.  For those who allow others to determine their success I can see problems on the horizon.  For those who take responsibility for their place in society and life in general, things have a way of working out.  People spend way too much time bitching about "the man" and the ceo and his large payouts.  Perhaps if these same people reallocated that time to building their own business, they would view the subject in a different light. 

I am in an industry where the top earners make over $1 billion a year.  In 2006 the best in the industry earned $1.7 billion dollars, his name is James Simons, he is a hedge fund manager and he makes a bundle for his clients.  These people make this kind of money because that is what the market deems they are worth.  I know managers who have the ivy league education yet struggle to gather assets.  On the other hand I know a few who have just an average education but their results are well above average and they have no problem gathering assets.  Not many in my industry complain about the other guy making too much money, it is more a source of inspiration. 

The outcome is up to the individual, your worth is determined by what value you bring to the table.  If you just show up you will be paid accordingly.

Scott
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rmchambers

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 04:26:36 AM »
There has to be some responsibility.  You can't justify acting like some of these outfits do by putting it all down to "they owe their share holders a return on the investment".  If the playing field is level that's ok, if companies (industries) need a leg up on the competition they fill the pockets of politicians and lobbyists to get a law changed or an exemption created and that's pretty shitty too.  "well everyone does it"  that's not an excuse either.

I blame the hedge fund assholes for why my electricity bill has just about tripled.  Thanks to Jeff Skillings blowing smoke up the CT state legislatures arses we got de-regulated electricity now.. competition will lower prices.. well the only snag there is there is NO competition, we are going down the same road that California went down when they deregulated.  Now the suppliers buy power on the open market and the hedge fund people and the power futures people manage to make their money as part of the transaction path between generator and my meter.. the bottom line is they are sycophants on my power supply and it's costing me 3 times what it did before they were in the picture to get the same power.

I won't be able to generate my own power cheaper than it's being supplied, but I am working towards not having to suffer blackouts/brownouts like California does/did when their grid turned into the shambles it did.

Ah well, ranting won't do any good.. just gotta work towards my eventual goal.

RC

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Re: Tyson- Conoco/Phillips Biodiesel politics
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2007, 09:38:34 AM »
What a tremendous relief.  Big business can still get rules changed while you and I can't import a 6.5 hp hobby engine.  I wonder how many of those $175,000,000 will be reinvested in the form of election campaign contributions?

Say what you will about Social Secruity, it's the best thing going for over half of the post 65 population.  If it weren't for this income just think how many couldn't afford to get to their part time jobs at Walmart and other God Bless America Corporations.

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