Author Topic: Info on ST1 or LT1, please  (Read 19283 times)

DaveW

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 05:25:17 PM »
Random thoughts -

    My older Allmand 5KW Allmand generator has bearings on both ends with a LoveJoy coupler to the ST2.  It has been a reliable runner for several decades. One of my Winco generators will fit up to the adaptor housing, although the bolt pattern is different and the rear mount support is in a different location.  Center it very carefully, transfer drill, and tap the holes.  Then spend whatever time it takes to get all the metal shavings out before you start the engine.  Flinging tiny hot bits of metal through the air shroud and around the shed while you are trying to test the generator output lessens the fun considerably.
    Yes the ST is a smooth runner, but it is noisy.  It sucks a lot of air for cooling, and has no water jacket to absorb noise, and runs at 1800 RPM.  The factory muffler is a bit of a joke, it does little to lessen the noise level and is in just the wrong place to walk by without burning your leg.  An aftermarket muffler from a Ford diesel tractor reduces the noise level a lot and can be routed out the shed.  With a little work and a heat shield it is also a lot safer to work around.
    The CS has many things going for it besides the obvious cool factor.  It is a slow, massive engine that will last most of forever if maintained.  That is the Lister, I don't know about the Listeriod.  But it is not the most fuel efficient engine Lister made.
    An engine shed is different things to different people.  I have seen one where a wall had to be removed to work on the engine, and also one that was a workshop with an engine in the corner.  I can say that some thought needs to be given to your needs, wants, and money before starting on building.  I started with a metal building from a big box store. With an air cooled engine inside, this added the boom to boombox.  The sound I was trying to contain made the walls into a remarkably effective echo chamber.  So I insulated the hound out of the boom box.  That worked great,  but when summer came the inside temperature rose to astonishing levels.  An air cooled engine requires an amazing amount of air for cooling when the ambient temperature is over 105 degrees.  At that point my wife got a nice gardening shed and I started with a larger stick built home for my engine and workbench.  Six inch walls with fiberglass insulation and OSB plywood abate the noise quite well, no ceiling and a thermostat controlled fan move enough air to cool as needed.  The engine puts out about as much heat from the exhaust as it generates in usable power, so that needs routing through the wall.  It also gives off about as much heat to cool the engine, and that needs a way to out of the building at least in the summer.
    I put my engine on a concrete base, for the sake of tradition and to make it easier to work on.  At my age getting up from a crouched position is a chore, and reaching out to a running hot engine to lever myself up is not a good plan.  Building a solid engine base with concrete is easy and cheap.  It may be more a reflection on my welding skills, but I passed on a metal base.  This way nothing vibrates apart, and it won't tip over.
    As to loading factor - a diesel seems to like a good load.  To me this means working out in advance my needs for the system.  I use my generator as backup rather than my primary power.  So I toted up the real load required, and planned out the amount of power required to size the system.  The ice box, some lights and a little air or heat is enough to keep the wife happy.  Central air is out, if nothing else that much load turning on and off makes the power load difficult to predict or control.  This way I can run two small window units in the summer, and electric space heaters in the winter.  Load shedding systems can do the same thing, but this is a simple backup system for me.
    I would say the ST is a great first generator, and if you can get one for 500 or less then I would.  But this is your money, you should take all advise with a grain of salt and make your own choices.  Whatever you do, someone somewhere probably won't be happy. Try to make sure it isn't you...

virg

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2007, 01:24:22 PM »
Dave, thanks for sharing your experience. I do accept the consequences of my own decisions, and for this reason, I usually try to learn from others. I find the outcome to be more predictable, therefore the consequences more acceptable :). Thanks again, on many levels. Thanks to Gary, Gary and Pete, too!

This is the shed I would use (best picture I have at this time).
Outside dimensions are 6'x8', 5' high walls, 7' peak, 3' wide door. It's framed with 2x4's, and the roof is to be replaced with shingles. I am also thinking of stripping the plywood and siding it with that cement siding stuff (to reduce combustibility). Inside it would be insulated with fiberglass and paneled with durock cement board. Built inside, a type of (orchestral) "clamshell" of cinderblock to direct engine noise away from house, upwards as well, if possible. Any alternate suggestions on soundproofing mechanical noise would be appreciated.
Exhaust heat recovery is highly desired. One method I understand people are using is passing the exhaust thru the flue of a gas water heater. Any other suggestions on exhaust heat recovery (in concert with muffling) would be appreciated.
See how close my neighbors are? Is this all just wishful thinking?

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2007, 02:50:07 PM »
What  soundproofing materials would you use? Are fiberglass and plywood effective enough? How about my idea to use those "styro-forms"? Any other suggestions?

Here is one that will make sure your wallet is thin and comfortable to sit on. :)
http://www.cyber-bridge-marine.com/lead-foam-soundproofing.html

Some more practical stuff.
http://www.soundproofing101.com/soundproofing_7.htm

______________
Andre' B

virg

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 01:11:27 PM »
Thanks, Andre', for the info.
Following a link from "Soundproofing 101" there is a plan for a triple-layered vented engine enclosure.
And it looks like I was on the right track with the concrete surround idier. This all helps me believe it can be done. Comments?
Quote
I can say that some thought needs to be given to your needs, wants, and money before starting on building.
(Just in case anyone thinks I'm not paying attention.)
I haven't sunk a dime into any of this yet. And maybe I don't need a gennie (until, of course, I do). But I sure do want one. Anyway, it doesn't hurt to dream. But with the helpful advice (and implied encouragement) of you guys, I might just set a few moths free, one day.
As far as a base I am thinking of building with concrete, using a 12" concrete form tube set foundation depth then flaring out above ground (a la martini glass). I'm guessing this should be strong enough. Comments?
P.S. Good news: I may be picking up my first batch of WVO this weekend, from a chicken joint. Wish me luck!

DaveW

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 02:18:38 PM »
Your plan sounds solid enough, at least for a lighter air cooled engine.  One thing of note.  I learn to hate myself all over again every time I have to drain and change the oil in mine.  I went to the desired mounting height with a concrete rectangle, with steel sunk into the concrete for engine mounting.  If I had it to do over I would stop 3 or 4 inches short and add steel up from there, with provisions for an oil drain planned in.  That way a different engine could be mounted by in worst case lopping off the steel and reworking a new mount.  As it is I have this double jointed elbow affair for an oil drain that can get plugged with gunk from the bottom of the engine sump.  Then I have to take it loose, and use a rod to scrape and flush out the mess.  I now have stains down the side of my concrete base.

dieselgman

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 02:30:35 PM »
I agree, some of the best setups I've seen are a simple steel frame about 18" off the ground, bolted to the concrete floor for stability. This raises the smaller engines to working level, makes for easy oil changes into large containers. That is a huge advantage for maintenance on these and as far as strength and vibration goes, a properly welded angle iron or pipe frame will not come apart under normal engine vibration and torque stresses. I have seen very large engines (Caterpillar and Detroit) set up in a way similar to this as well.

For soundproofing I have used a simple foamed enclosure with fairly thin metal walls. The amount of noise dampening will have a lot to do with how many mechanical connections there are inside to outside. If you can provide a mechanical break or double-wall type of setup that would be the best level of noise control. Foam or fiberglass are both fairly good at stopping sound waves. A simple sheet metal standoff for attaching the interior wall covering will also go a long way towards isolating that vibration.

Gary
diesel-electric.us
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations

Stan

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 05:44:30 PM »
Dave...I noticed a large (1.5gal) plastic tank designed with a pump handle on it's top for sale recently (around $25 I think) that was specifically designed for sucking crankcase oil out of lawn mowers, snowblowers, garden tillers etc.  I immediately thought of buying one for my Lister as I could put the suction hose (around 3/4" ID I think) right down into the bottom of the sump and suck out all the grunge (technical term  ;) ) .  That would negate the need for a fancy mount which would allow you to drain the oil out.
Stan

DaveW

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 08:41:00 PM »
Stan -
   A good idea.  Sometimes the best ones are the simplest.  I will keep my eyes open, maybe at the tractor supply store they would have such a thing.
   Of course, and please don't tell anyone, the real reason I poured concrete all the way up was to cover my welding.  It generally looks like chickens were roosting overhead for the night when I finish.  If I depended on my welding to keep the engine in place and level it would either be running on its side or wandering down the street looking for a home.  For me, some things are better hired out.

Stan

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2007, 12:51:34 AM »
OK, here it is at Lee Valley Tool    http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&cat=2,2160,40710,56093&p=56093

Naturally they are a bit more expensive than the big box stores, but they usually have it first.  Look around, or order it on-line.  I have a small electric drill mounted pump that pumps out oil wells with very little muss or fuss.
Stan

virg

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Re: Info on ST1 or LT1, please
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2007, 11:31:23 AM »
I'm not sure how long to keep this topic alive. I have decided to try and strike a deal on one (or more) of this fellow's ST engines, if he decides to sell.

Any other questions regarding installation, etc. would deviate from the original post, since the basic questions have been addressed. (Keep an eye out, please, for new topics.)

However, if anyone would like to add to the discourse, please do so. The more info/opinions I have to work with, the better.

This is my very first ever online forum, and I've found it enjoyable, as well as helpful. A fellow member had this to say (from an email). "It is nice to have the technology to connect us together and share the information, encouragement, etc.." I couldn't agree with him more!

Special thanks to all of you that have shared thus far.

George M.

P.S. I scored some WVO!!! (What a mess!)