Lister BS649

[potter]

Hi guys, could sure use some help!  I think I have tennis elbow from cranking    
About a week ago, while at the dump I spotted this Lister Model B.S. 649  #00286 LT127-02
It looked to be all there minus the crank, so home with me it went.  On first examination I found that it would not turn past T.D.C.   Feeling disappointed fearing that something had come loose and fallen into the cylinder, I proceeded to pull the head off and found everything looked in pristine condition except for a huge build up of carbon.  Large chunks of this had become dislodged (probably from being thrown off at the dump), and were sitting on top of the exhaust valve causing the problem.  After cleaning this off and reassembling, and faricating a crank, I fell into the most arm wrenching episode of my life.  I get gobs of either black smoke out of the intake or white smoke out of the exhaust, but have yet to get it past to revolution after dropping the valve lifter.  I have tried bleeding all lines (can hear injector popping off), have drained old fuel and put in new and bled lines but all this thing wants to do is kick-back.
Thanks for any suggestion.
Chris
PS. Any ideas on RPM or Horse Power would be greatly appreciated as these were worn off of the   I D plate.  Thanks again.

[rcavictim]

I guess you found out why it was at the dump.   

[Guy_Incognito]

It sounds like your timing is out. Or it needs preheating.

Sanity check: You *are* rotating it the right way aren't you? 

Locate TDC before the intake valve is opened, slowly turn it over and ensure you've got the approximate suck-squeeze-bang-blow valve cycle right. Ensure that the injector fires "sometime" before TDC during the compression stroke.

[listerdiesel]

About a week ago, while at the dump I spotted this Lister Model B.S. 649  #00286 LT127-02
Thanks for any suggestion.
Chris

PS. Any ideas on RPM or Horse Power would be greatly appreciated as these were worn off of the   I D plate.  Thanks again.

Details are on the spec plate:

00286 LT127-02

It is an LT1 engine

00 is the year of manufacture
286 is the serial number
LT1 is the type and No of cylinders
27 should be letters, not numerals
02 is the build spec

Build 02 is 'probably' a close-coupled genset spec with electric start, I haven't got an LT1 book here, too modern!!

The comment about starting rotation is timely, most USA-supplied engines were anti-clock compared with the UK build.

Peter

[potter]

Thanks guys for the quick replies.  No, I do not think my cranking rotation can be wrong as this cranks from the cam shaft and has a start dog, so cranking wrong direction is impossible.  Sorry, I know nothing about diesels but when you throw the decompression lever this thing it's like it hits a brick wall.  Just a quick look at the timing, it seems this is injecting 90 degrees before TDC.  As I know nothing about diesels I do not know if this is correct or not. I am assuming that the timing is set by someway of shimming the pump??  I made my crank handle about 12" long and was wondering if perhaps this should have been shorter to gain RPM? 
Is it possible that the compression is so high because I did not clean the carbon from some sort of ignition chamber??? 
Sorry for all the dumb questions?
Christopher

PS.  Peter, I know it is confusing from what I have read about the numbers as well, but this is definitely a TS127.

[listerdiesel]

PS.  Peter, I know it is confusing from what I have read about the numbers as well, but this is definitely a TS127.

OK, that section of the label is intended for a single letter to show rotation, so I don't know what was intended by the '27'.

90 degrees BTDC sounds a lot, and I wouldn't have thought you could shim your way out of that, it is more likely to be incorrect assembly after a decoke or something like that.

As it only gets problematical after you drop the decomp lever, it is not mechanical, unless you have liquid in the cylinder??

Peter

[DaveW]

    It might be time for a short note on engine ID here, I have seen the BS649 prefix used more than once in the hope of identifying an engine.  BS649, or more properly B. S. 649 : (1958), signifies that the engine meets British Standard 649 set by the British Standards Institute. I believe it was superceded in 1991 by an EN standard.
       Re: The performance of reciprocating compression-ignition (diesel) engines, utilizing liquid fuel only, for general purposes.
  The standard may be found at times on EEBBAAYY ( I hate to advertise for them).  It may also be purchased direct from the Institute.
       This is like saying that some widget meets ISO9000 standards.  I have seen the BS649 label on an HR2, HR3, ST1, ST2, ST3, and so on.
  Potter -  In one place you reference a LT1, and then a TS1.  If I were in your shoes I would find the appropriate manual and check the timing.  It sounds as though it is seriously out of time. 
  As to rotation, my ST has a key that allows for cranking in either direction, it has a number of US8740 ST2A30-12.  Near as I can tell the A stands for anti-clockwise, as that is the direction it rotates when power is applied to the starter.

[ronmar]

Well smoke is good, that indicates that you are probably making enough compression.  I am not specifically familliar with this engine, but does it have an exposed fuel rack?  If so is it opening all the way when you attempt to start?  I know on my listeroid that it will crank, feel and sound like normal, right down to the injector creak, but will just not start unless the fuel rack is in the full throttle position when cold.  It will smoke and sound like it is trying to pop, but it won't start.  Can you post a picture?

Ron

[potter]

Thanks so much guys for the help.  It seems kiss will get you every time.  It was the crank handle length.  I dropped it from 12" to 8" and she kicked right off.  She will even start now in the run position.  Runs like a dream.  Now if only I can figure the horse power and RPM I'll be looking for a Gen head for this.
I found that a golf cart starter gen will just get this turning over off compression and if you let it get it's RMP's up good, it will start on this fine.  No more cranking  . 
Thanks again for all the help.
Christopher
PS - I tried to upload photos to CopperMine but keep getting a catastrophic failure message every time I tried.  Hope I can get some posted in the future.

[DaveW]

  Potter -
    According to my book the LT1 is 7.5 HP continuous, 8.3 HP intermittent at 3000 RPM.  Bore is 3.25 in.  Sroke is 3 in.  cylinder is 24.9 cu in.  Lube oil capacity is 2.3 pint.  Hope this helps. 

[potter]

thanks Dave just what i needed

[dieselgman]

potter,

I don't know if you noted any references to the LT1 elsewhere on the forum but another member was asking about this model. The good news... this engine is very fuel efficient, the bad... it will not pull much of an AC generator head (only about 3.5kW maximum as I recall). This engine is often used on road construction sign boards, they run 12vdc and the engine is just belted to a small DC alternator... Very efficient for charging the battery bank! If you need any literature information or parts you may contact me via direct email.

Best of luck with your project!

Gary
diesel-electric.us