Author Topic: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp  (Read 13615 times)

Mr Lister

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Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« on: January 22, 2006, 05:12:32 PM »
Guys,

This week I have been rebuilding an engine I bought last February which had a leaky exhaust valve and some fuel injection problems.

Here is a brief account of how I got it running again.

This weekend I have rebuilt the valve gear on a 1951 Lister CS 6/1 by
fitting new valve guides, valve springs and lapping in the two new valves
with grinding paste.

I was a little concerned about the exhaust valve still leaking a bit of
compression, but this has now settled down and a reasonable amount of
compression has been restored.

I had the same problem with my injector pump as Andy was experiencing.  It
was pumping fuel to the injector, but without sufficient pressure to fire
the injector.

After consulting fellow enthusiasts on the stationary engine list, I was
advised to undo the fuel delivery pipe on the top of the injector pump and
check that the delivery valve was working correctly.

On unscrewing the top "nut" from the injector pump and watching out so as
not to lose the spring, I saw the top of the delivery valve which looks a
bit like a bowler hat.   It is located in the centre of a cylindrical
chamber into which the nut screws.  This chamber is normally full of high
pressure fuel and the delivery valve opens with the rising fuelpressure as
th pump plunger rises, and then snaps shut unter the action of the spring.

The delivery valve has to be free to move up and down by about 1/8" inorder
to work correctly.  Mine was stuck in the up position, allowing fuel to
leave the pump when the plunger was pushed in, but also flow back when the
plunger retracted.

The solution to my problem was to free the delivery valve by tapping it
downwards VERY GENTLY with a mandrel made from a short length of small bore
tube. (Microbore copper would probaby do).  The valve had seized in the open
postition and neededa couple of gentle taps to get it to loosen off.  This
could be assisted by soaking the valve and the delivery chamber overnight in
WD40.

Once free, the valve pops up with the plunger pressure and sinks downwards
as the plunger retracts.

To test the injector, I removed it from the cylinder head and laid it on top
of the head and facing away from me.

(VERY IMPORTANT - this injector will shoot toxic diesel fuel about 4 feet
distance at 110 atmospheres of pressure - it would instantly blind you if
you got it in the eye, and will even inject fuel into your skin if you get
in the way. It will continue to shoot fuel at this pressure even if the
flywheel is turning very clowly or just over the injection point - TAKE
CARE!)

I reconnected the high pressure fuel deliver pipe and turned the engine
over several times. After about 40 revolutions,  the injector fired a good
spray of fuel, and closed with a satisfying creak sound.

Now that I had fixed my fuel problem, I was keen to crank the engine over an
get it to run.

It had no air cleaner, no exhaust pipe or muffler, and the diesel was
temporarily rigged up in a 1 litre bottle sitting on topof the fuel filter
and wired to the cylinder head.

After a few starting attemptsit gave a couple of grey smokey puffs from the
exhaust port.

We then got a small propane torch and held the flame about 6" from the inlet
port. This was enough to preheat the combustion air, but not so close that
the engine only sucked in burnt propane fumes (CO2 and H20).   After about 3
minutes of gentle warming and turning the engine over - decompressed,  with
the starting handle we got it to start.  The first real power stroke blew
out a lot of soot into my helper's face, and I man-handled the fuel pump
rack to maintain a reasonable constant rpm, because this engine was lacking
the governor spring.

I noted that it was quite responsive to the position of the rack, and
pulling out the rack a little was accompanied by a few very loud power
strokes and sparks of burning carbon shooting out of the open exhaust port!

After about 5 minutes of playing the throttle, I shut the engine off,
because I had been running it without coolant, and the old oil in the sump
was less than adequate for continued running.

Chuffed to bits!


Ken

Stan

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2006, 05:41:53 PM »
Thanks Ken for the very informative posting.  I was getting rather annoyed at all the strutting and puffing on this forum.  It's nice to see someone posting information germain to the subject and stating the steps clearly and concisely to troubleshoot a lister (or oid, as the case may be).  For those of us who are intending to be owners in the near future, this kind of post is a godsend.
Stan
ps...it's also nice to be able to attach a name to the poster, rather than some enigmatic non de plume.

Mr Lister

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2006, 06:13:55 PM »
Stan,

Thanks for your post.

I agree that what this list needs is plenty more sound practical advice on how to work with these engines regardless of their age and manufacturer.

Yesterday I gave up on the injection pump because I had heard a rumour that if you start to mess with them they end up a can of worms.

I sought advice from someone who regularly maintains them, he said that I could proceed with confidence into the elivery valve chamber without risk of damage to the plunger and any of the more precision areas of the pump. This is the sort of knowledge that needs to be shared amongst the group.

I grew up in the 70's and messed around with model glow engines, but had never worked on full size diesels before. 

There is nothing hard or complicated about the Lister, you just need a few correct tools and the confidence to proceed with the repair.

I think that anyone who wants to run a Listeroid should have a go at a strip-down and rebuild to see how straight forward it is.

I now have another working engine, from one that was bought last year in a non-running condition and I have had a satisfying, but oily weekend!


Ken





BruceM

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2006, 07:42:36 PM »
Ken, A very good to know post on stuck injector delivery valve, and a most enjoyable read about your resurrection of a 55 (!) year old Lister.  Thanks! Bruce

Mr Lister

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2006, 06:33:03 PM »
BruceM & list,

The 1951 Lister is now back on it's trailer.

There are a few of photos of it on my Lister News site:

www.powercubes.com/lister_news.html


The new valve gear works fine and it started first swing.   Not bad for something that has not run for 20 years or so.


Ken



rgroves

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2006, 07:21:59 PM »
BruceM & list,

The 1951 Lister is now back on it's trailer.

There are a few of photos of it on my Lister News site:

www.powercubes.com/lister_news.html


The new valve gear works fine and it started first swing.   Not bad for something that has not run for 20 years or so.


Ken




Ken, thanks for the link.  This is a good looking setup.  Two questions:

Does it jump around on that trailer?
Can you please tell me more about the propane cylinder coolant tank? That looks simple and practical.

Thanks

Russell
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

Mr Lister

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2006, 12:07:48 AM »
Russell & list,

The engine is pretty stable on the trailer when running a 2kW or greater load.  The biggest problem is the water tank which dances a merry jig at a certain engine rpm.

The propane tank was a salvaged unit with a busted valve. It holds about 6 US gallons of water.

I left it lying out in the sun with the valve open for about 3 months and then removed the last of the busted valve with a big wrench.  I guessed by that time most of the propane had "left the building".

I then flooded it with water a couple of times before I took it down to the village blacksmiths shop (yes -for real), where he welded in the upper and lower 1" pipes and the bit of 2" diameter scafolding pole to make a stanchion post.

The engine will run all day at a show with just 5 or 6 gallons of cooling water but you will see it boil in the outlet pipe from the head!

But as Listers say in the original manual  "this is a heat engine - it likes to run hot"


Ken



quinnf

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2006, 06:49:23 AM »
Ken,

One thing about the English Lister (why does everybody say British these days?) and the Indian versions that I've often thought is a potential problem for many of us going forward is parts availability for the injector pump.  From your experience with the older engines, do the injector pumps ever get worn and start to have problems getting up pressure?  If so, are parts still available?

Quinn

Mr Lister

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2006, 03:54:50 PM »
Quinn,

To the best of my knowledge spare parts are still available -at a price.

I found one with a stuck delivery valve, and several with stiff or siezed racks.

One engine I collected 2 weeks ago had had the original IP, replaced by a Mico pump.

With regards to worn out pumps,  I am yet to find an engine  with a totally useless pump.


Ken


hotater

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2006, 04:19:49 PM »
Great to hear an old machine is running again.

I guess I missed all the warnings about taking apart pumps and injectors...I had mine apart the first couple of days and glad I did.  Both were stained and dirty from the nasty Indian fuel.

Old gunsmith trick for removing stains from highly polished and critically fitted parts--- Use the charred end of a wooden dowel.  The charcoal is abrasive to the stain but not the steel and it can't change tolorences.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

quinnf

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2006, 12:54:15 AM »
Hi Jack,

Good to hear you again.  Do you sometimes get the feeling these English guys enjoy teasing us with their stories of these great old engines found evidently without great effort, and to be had for not much dough?   ;)

Quinn

GuyFawkes

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2006, 01:58:42 AM »
dunno, but I may have found two more going for 200 pounds
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

hotater

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2006, 02:07:51 AM »
For years I heard of the old farmers with Boss, Purdy, and Holland shotguns in the closet not being used and could be had cheap in the English countryside.  In 1985 when the pound was $1.03 I gathered up all the cash I could and flew by Peoples Express to Gatwick and spent two weeks beating the English and Scottish bushes for good shotguns, cheap....and found a bunch of them.   ;D

I wish Listers were as easy to ship and clear customs.   :(
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

solarguy

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2006, 02:06:39 AM »
George from Utterpower recently sent around a test version of "How to fiddle around with your injection pump", I'm paraphrasing.  Nice pics and typically straightforward diagnostic recommendations.

I think I have a copy stashed away if any would like to see it by email.

The main thrust of the article was, work in a very clean environment, pay attention, and read up a bit before you do something silly.  You'll do fine.

I completely concur that you need to pay attention around high pressure liquids.  If there's a leak in the injection system of an industrial installation, a typical aid to find the source of the leak is a piece of paper taped to a long stick.  If your hand gets in the way of the high pressure stream, it is possible to get your finger just about cut off.  Never mind the toxic diesel that gets shot into your flesh.

Finest regards,

troy

GuyFawkes

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Re: Rebuilding a 1951 Lister CS 6hp
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2006, 09:39:05 AM »

I wish Listers were as easy to ship and clear customs.   :(

they are, ship as parts, it's really not a big deal....

got two 6/1s, see for sale forum
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.