5-1 cylinder head query

[Chaz]

We own a 1935 5-1 which has a worn inlet valve guide.
Recently, our local diesel repair man died, and I was invited to rummage through his workshop and make an offer on any parts I may have wanted.
Wow!! shelves and shelves full of original brand new Lister and Petter parts! Unfortunately not very mush in the 3-1/5-1/6-1 range, although I did find a piston, a couple of sets of rings, some gaskets  and a con rod. 
Had a good look around the rest of the workshop and lo and behold, tucked away behind a pile of assorted odds and sods was a 6-1 (?) head complete with CO valve, with what appeared to be a new set of valves and springs, and most importantly, no play in the valve guides.

I've taken the original head off Mr Lister and compared it with the new one. I believe the 'new' head might be quite a bit newer than my original one because the paint on it is still in fairly good order, with RA Lister in yellow still visible on the side. I noticed however, that the original head has what appears to be a copper bush in the hole where the injector nozzle goes, whereas the new head doesn't and the hole appears to be about the size of the one in the original were the copper bush to be removed. Also, the injector studs are somewhat longer in the new head.

Apart from that, the two heads appear to be identical.... can anybody telll me if the copper bush is essential? Was it simply left out of later heads?
Any feedback most appreciated.......

[Stan]

Penelope is a 1949 vintage 6/1 and has the copper ring (washer) in it.  You need to replace the ring every time you take the injector out.
Stan

[Chaz]

This is not the copper washer, but like a copper bushing that lines the hole where the nozzle goes through the head. The nozzle is a farily snug fit in the original head, but in the 'new' head, the hole is approx. 1.5 mm bigger diameter than the nozzle. Consequently, the actual siting of the injector in the 'new' head is not as precise.
I've got both the original 1935 manual and the later (1960s) manual and neither of them show this bushing/spacer. However, if you look down the recess that the injector sits in, you ca definitely see the top surface of what appears to be a copper-coloured bush lining the hole through to the combustion chamber.

I guess what I'm mainly worried about is whether any long-term damage might occur if I just go ahead and put the new head on Mr. Lister.

[Stan]

The head will probably be just fine, Peter knows more about this but I know there were more than a few styles of injectors.  I guess they could have had different diameter holes.
Stan

[hotater]

Chaz--

There shouldn't be a problem.    That copper you see is a thick gasket washer that seals the injector seat.

There is NO need to replace the copper gasket unless it's broken.    Heat it cherry red and drop quickly in cold water.  It's now annealed and as soft and pliable as it can get and ready for many more years of use..

[Chaz]

Hi guyz,
thanks for the replies, but the copper gasket underneath the injector is not what I'm asking about.
In my original 5-1 head, if you look down the recess where the injector goes, at the bottom is the hole where the injector nozzle protrudes through to the combustion chamber.
*LINING THIS HOLE* is a sleeve/liner/spacer which also appears to be made of copper.
My 'new' head does not have this, and consequently, the hole is much bigger than the injector nozzle (like about 1/16 in. bigger diameter).

I've seen many, many 5-1/6-1 injectors over the years, and they have all had the same size nozzle (as the 4 that I have here).

If anyone here has got the head off their engine or maybe a spare head lying around, could you take a close look at the nozzle hole and verify whether it is the same size as the injector nozzle or much larger?
Cheers from Great Barrier Island.
C

[snail]

Chaz,
      for the record, my 10/2 (1940) has nozzles 13.9mm dia sitting in holes 14.5 mm dia (approx). no sign of copper sleeve.
     I wonder if you have one of the "wet injector" heads which has been converted to "dry injector". There's something about this in David Edgington's book. I'm sure Peter could answer this. Where are you Peter? His email is on the site:http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/

Cheers,

Brian

[Chaz]

Hmmm... interesting thought. Unfortunately the original owner from whom we bought the property has long since departed the physical realm.
We were told that the engine had been bought as a new still-in-the-original crate just after WW2 and has had daily use ever since up until about 5 years ago when we started putting solar panels on the roof.
Although it drives a Startomatic 4 kVA alternator and has the solenoid operated compression release and fuel shutoff mechanism, it has the normal spoked flywheels rather than the solid ones.
After 60 years of *assorted attention* who knows what's been done to it.

'Tis a smooth runner, though. On the island where we live, there are a few Listers and lots of Indian clones (Listeroids). Visitors often pause by the generator shed if the engine is running and invariably comment "Sounds like a real Lister".

I have the exhaush running into a 250 litre concrete chamber buried in the bank outside the shed, the outlet from which is about 8 metes of 150mm stainless pipe also buried for most of it's length. It certainly make for a very quiet exhaust.... it pants rather than puffs

[snail]

it pants rather than puffs

Sounds like me after starting mine! .
 
Thats a serious exhaust system! I'm keen to compare the mechanical racket of a 'roid with the genuine item. My buried drum takes care of the exhaust on the roid but the rest....

cheers,

brian

[lendusaquid]

Well i have a video of my Lister running if you want to compare.The breather is abit rattly at the moment but iam working on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ODk0T4LjPI

[listerdiesel]

I've taken the original head off Mr Lister and compared it with the new one. I believe the 'new' head might be quite a bit newer than my original one because the paint on it is still in fairly good order, with RA Lister in yellow still visible on the side. I noticed however, that the original head has what appears to be a copper bush in the hole where the injector nozzle goes, whereas the new head doesn't and the hole appears to be about the size of the one in the original were the copper bush to be removed. Also, the injector studs are somewhat longer in the new head.

You may have a fairly rare water-cooled injector head by the sound of it, or someone has modified the head to make it dry after being wet.

The early engines had the injector body sitting in the actual water of the cooling system, and it caused enormous problems when the body rusted up, so the dry body was introduced.

The other option is that someone has fitted a different injector to that which should be there, and has sleeved the hole to keep it concentric.

Wet injectors were used in engine nos 12052 to 14305 for the 3/1 engine, and it appears engine nos 128 to 14460 in the 5/1 and 6/1 engines.

There is a sealing rubber part # 8-1/C38 which is used for the water seal.

Peter