Author Topic: New to the group,, saying hello~!`  (Read 37869 times)

sodbust

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 05:24:16 PM »
Steve,

I have played some with wood gas.. but since trees are few out here on the high plains of Kansas, I dropped the project.

Yes, a 15% to 20% diesel will trigger off the wood gas mixture.

As for veg oil costs,, where I grow my own and press, its factoring right at $1.05 a gallon.

As for the cost of buying the veg oil and useing it as a fuel additive,, the cost saveings of the additive, pays out almost a 20% saveings over just buying #2 dino..  My banker is useing my sf/blend as a fuel additive in his gas pu.. He says it gaining him right at 3.5 mpg and with the cost of my additive at $7 a gallon, he feels the return on investment of almost 140% over the additive cost..  He just uses about a quart per 20 gallons.

Daniel  sodbust

fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2007, 02:54:41 AM »
Hi Daniel,
Thanks for the info... I've blended but usually with WVO... Right now I'm running new oil... I'll try adding some RUG and see how it works... I've been running veg for the last several years... I started heating the injector lines to improve the combustion... it's works pretty good... now I'll give your mix a go....maybe I have something to learn... Thanks again...

fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2007, 05:43:49 AM »
Hi all,
I thought I'd give the sodbust cocktail a try... and report with some results... I've been using the mix for the ladst couple months in my 97 Cummins / dodge and my 03 TDI...so far everything's been great... here's the recepie... new veg oil 60% / RUG  10%/ diesel / 30% while I haven't experienced a mileage gain... I would say the power is  as good or better than diesel... engines start fine too...   
I'll keep it up and get back with more info in a few months...

danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2007, 03:06:32 PM »
One of the problems VO fuels has is that nearly any VO blend will "work" as a fuel for diesel engines in warm climates. In warm climates most will even start and run OK and not exhibit a noticable loss in available power using VO fuels. And so many will ASSUME that if an engine runs on a fuel it "works" OK as a fuel.  But later...when problems show up they are not usually as eager to share this with the folks who may have taken their "it works great" advice.

So I am taking the time to provide the associated disclaimer/warning that seems obvious to me..but may not be as obvious to a newbie.  All the long term studies on VO and VO blends used in unmodified fuel systems have ended when the engines used for testing developed serious problems that indicated catastrophic engine damage would result if used much longer.  My own experience and that of dozens of individuals that have contacted me with requests on how to cope with developing ring/groove/land coking  appears to bear this out in practical use siituations as well. Although VO fuel and VO/solvent blends combust enough to provide power much as diesel fuel does in an engine not yet up to operating temperature or with significantly decreased piston ring sealaing capability due to engine wear VO fuel and VO/solvent blends are not fuels suitable for long term operation due mostly to coking of upper ring/lands/grooves.

If you are planning to use vo fuel or a VO/solvent blend as a fuel in a diesel engine with an unmodified fuel system there are precautions you should take to allow yourself some warning that upper ring/lands/groove coking has accumulates to the point that immediate action must be taken to avoid serious secondary damage to the engine.  While using VO fuel or blends in a diesel with unmodified fuel system is possible it is just not a good long term economic choice.  The costs associated with ASSUMING that VO fuel or VO/solvent blends are the equivalent of diesel fuel are just too high.
Dana
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fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2007, 12:53:10 AM »
As usual Dana Lindscoot is taking the conservative approach... He's been preaching this same thing for the last 4 years but has never posted a picture or given any real data about his experiences...

For the record the are several folks who have logged over 200K miles using the blend technique... Dana knows this and still says it doesn't work... 



danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2007, 05:30:06 AM »
I am aware of one person who claims to have logged over 130K on a blend. He has a very unusualy circumstance in that he puts an unusually high number of miles on each day and so very little time is spend runnign the blend in an engine not yet up to operating temp. He has not kept any records that might indicate if his engine is exhibinitng any of the common indications of ring/land/groove coking.  The majority of individuals I have know and advised who have attempted to use a blend in a single tank conversion have had problems cosistant with what the results formal studies on blends down to 5% VO had.

I am conservative in my advice. I think tha this is expected of people who do provide prressional advice in any field that is considered emergine or experimental technology. My paying clients expect and appreciate my conservative approach...and for the most part those who recieve my conservative advice for free also appreciate the fact I value their engines enough to encourage great care be used in any conversion. Those who want to take significant chances are welcome to..but I do not feel it is doing them a service to not at least warn them that experience has shown there are methods with high success ratios..and those with low success ratios. I do not make a distinction between my level of responsibility for advice I am paid for and that I provide for free.

I repeat.blends will "work" as fuel..but by and large blends are not an acceptable substitute for diesel fuel IMO as accellerated ring/land coking is nearly inevitable unless the engine is warmed to operating temperature before the blend is introduced to the fuel injection system.  This is learly not saying it "does not work" it is merely saying that there are unintended consequences of using it as simply a diesel fuel substitute.

Fatty has engaged in posting baits and flames aimed at me on other forums to the point of being moderated. I see no reason to encourage that type of behavior on this forum by responding to any posts that appear to be simply ax grinding.  I hope the forum members will understand and appreciate this position.


Dana
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mobile_bob

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2007, 06:39:49 AM »
first of all an appology to both of you in advance,, but i find this to be an interesting arguement.

on the one hand we seem to have those who think running veggie oil is just fine, and will cause no problems

on the other we have the camp that reports test results done with veggie oil as a fuel, and advising caution

i find myself in the middle, mainly because of my experience and because of my intended use.

what is interesting is there was a fellow on here that used the term biodiesel for a process where he blended veggie oil with regular gas
and he was pretty much picked apart for his idea's and reporting.  the thing is,, he came up with some sound reasoning on an approach that
bares a closer analysis.

while i would agree that there are some folks getting by quite well with some applications burning veggie oils there is also alot of evidence of damage
caused by the use of these fuels,

temperature certainly is a valid component, but i wonder if the gentleman that i referred to had it right in that the damage is caused by
the basic chemistry of veggie fuel, wherein it is changed when mixed with regular gasoline.

what i am certain of, is the glycerin component among others might very well be the stuff that gum's up rings and causes problems, so far i have
seen no lab testing to show what the cause is.

for a diyer to use pure veggie oil, the unknowns become problematic when often times the engines are run at low or part loading and temperatures are
hard to maintain.

if you can be assured of keeping the engine up to temp, under a good steady load, with preheated veggie then you might be successful.
and i would tend to agree with Fattywagon on the ability to use it successfully.

if on the other hand if you cannot be assured of fulfilling these parameters, i am with Dana,,, i wouldnt recommend its use over the long term
there just isn't a large enough body of evidence to support its use without issues, and there is some body of evidence to damage being caused.

what would be interesting is to hear more from the gentleman from kansas, and his process. perhaps more testing by other folks would show
that there is some middle ground to where this type of fuel can be used by all without engine damage concerns.
so far his reports and testing with a 11 liter diesel (cummins) tractor have shown great promise without any detrimental effects.

clearly there is room here for discussion, testing and debate

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2007, 05:54:48 PM »
Hi Bob,
I think it's interesting since some folks are advocating adding 5% biodiesel mix to diesel.. B5... others advocate a 20% mix... B20.... some go all the way to 100% B100.
Most folks pushing biodiesel don't advocate using SVO... they use scare tactics like engine damage to keep folks thinking it doesn't work... but a 40-60 mix of new VO and diesel fuel will operated without incident in most engines an a warm climate...
Here's my story...

 over 4 years ago I purchased an old benz for $150.. I did some modification to the fuel system and started running 100% SVO in it... I had a heated filter and fuel line but one day I noticed the engine ran better when the injector lines were hot... so I made some resistance heaters for them.. I was the first to make / sell an electric heater for the injector lines...  I posted my experiences on a forum... Immediately Dana came along and said this was useless and didn't work... I did tail pipe testing of CO and HC's and found them lower with the heaters on... Dana said the results were flawed because I didn't use a diesel tailpipe tester... I'm sure you can figure that a tailpipe tester doesn't care if the engine is gasoline or diesel...

Now Dana also makes and sells injector line heaters.... so go figure...

 well with all that said to date over 1,000 folks have purchased the fatywagon heaters and swear by them...  I can tell you from experience SVO can be used in a single tank in an IDI benz and it has given me over 150K miles of service on an old worn out engine..

Can 100% SVO be used successfully for start up in a DI engine?

My answer is yes... but you need to make some modifications... heated injector, heated injector lines and I have found that modifying the piston helps with making sure the combustion is more complete... 

Bit these days my time is limited so I have been trying blends on my DI vehicles... so far very successfully... do I have 300,000 miles on the blends? no I do not... But I do have about 20K on them... and so far so good..

Now the Dana factor...

Any time there's a post like sodbust made Dana intrudes and trys to become the authority...  This is often frustrating since he offers no proof of his accomplishments or back up for his credentials... He claims to make his money converting fleets of commercial trucks to SVO... But no one has ever verified his claims and he offers no pictures or testimony...  the only thing he has ever posted a picture of was an old boat gas tank that he made a heater for.. Not to be critical but it looked like something my 11 year old could cobble together... when I started preaching the benefits of CHP he jumped on that bandwagon...  He claims to have a bank of 2 cylinder listeroids making power with over 15K hours on SVO... so far no proof or pics... personally I don't like being lied to and I'm fairly certain Dana has concocted some whoppers...   If I continue  contributing here it is likely Dana and I will fight  / argue and it's not good for me or the forum... So if he continues posting I will likely leave... 

« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 05:59:36 PM by fattywagonman »

mkdutchman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2007, 06:32:49 PM »
If I continue  contributing here it is likely Dana and I will fight  / argue and it's not good for me or the forum... So if he continues posting I will likely leave... 

Fatty, don't leave, if you have pictures/proof, in other words, people can see that you're not concocting results, if your ideas are clearly documented, why should you leave? If you're right, and Dana is wrong, then you should be able to produce results/pictures/tests backing up your statements........but if you turn tail and run it makes you look bad..............on the other hand if you can backup what you say, then it'll point out who's muddying the water and who's actually paddling

Biloxibad

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2007, 06:40:03 PM »
I second the motion, Don't let an undocumented unsubstantiated poster such as Dana spoil your day..  There are plenty of us "LURKERS" who read and do understand the difference between sound advice and "broken record" repeats and disclaimers from such as Dana. 

Faty , this is a question for you,   I was running my 6/1 lister (metro)  and decided to try it on SVO (from Walmart in the 1 gallon jug) . The engine was up to temp and had been producing over 20 amps 230v for about 6 hours.. I drained thje diesel while it was running, and put in the gallon of vegetable oil..

It appeared to run about the same except for the diesel knock..  It became much more noticable almost to the point that I was becoming alarmed and again replaced the fuel back with Diesel. . Do you experience similar KNOCK with  your applications?

thanks

Steve 
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750

danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2007, 10:54:38 PM »
Fattys axe grinding has led him to post more an mroe disinformation..especially about me. I do not make or sell injector line heater. I do buy and use them in large quantities though. The injector line heaters that Fatty developed were primitive and much less effective and safe than those being devolped by another person. He tested and changed his designe for optimal performace over a period of 1 1/2 years. He began with something very similar to Fattys basic design but chose to deveop it into a better product over that period. They were released about the same time and I chose and reccomended the better (IMO) injector line heaters. Fatty felt slighted and has been grinding his ax ever since.

Fatty does not put a high value on research and development and testing. I do.
Therefore when Fatty says "it works" it means something very different than when I do. My main goal in converting is to not shorten engine life AND use VO fuel. I take into consideration the great varaition  climate and WVO charactheristics that are common in North America. Fatty does not.  I make a living advising large consumers of diesel fuel on how to most effectively and safely convert to VO fuel.  They expect me to not take unneccesary chances with their trucks engines. They appreciate my caution. Aned that cation is the result of becoming as familiar with VO fuel use as possible. I have done this not only by aquiring and studdying all of the research avaialbe on the subject (which in itself cost several thousand dollars) but also by experimenting and helping others to experiment with VO fuel and VO fuel conversions.

In other words I have approached this in a scientific and professional manner. 
You will find that most professionals in any industry tend to be a bit more cuatious than those who do it on the hobbiest level. If you prefer information that does not incude any cautions ask a hobbiest.

And if you want only information from hobbiests then simply make it unpleasant for those who maek a living in the profession being discussed. 

Bob...I think you misunderstand my position.

Quote
on the one hand we seem to have those who think running veggie oil is just fine, and will cause no problems

on the other we have the camp that reports test results done with veggie oil as a fuel, and advising caution

I think that running veggie is "just fine" but you cannot expect it to work as an exact substitute for diesel. In other words if you just pour it in the fuel tank (assuming you live in a warm climate) it will act as a fuel for a diesel engine. But there will be short and long term consequences to ignoring the fact it is not diesel fuel. Those of us that have studied these consequences developed ways to combat them one by one. The short term consequence fixes were first and long term one of course took longer.  15 years ago there was a very small body of knowledge and all of the "pioneers" in VO fuel were essentially pouring in VO and once something bad happened trying researching who to avoid it ..adn trying again. Many..including Fattywagon seem to be at the point that we were at when we first began experimenting. And for some reason they resent when those of us that have been doing this for along time urge caution and then try to expalin why.  We do this so they do not have to take 5 or ten years to "discover" what we did 5 or 10 years ago.

But Fatty..and a few others do not appreciate any advice..especially that urging them to do more research before declaring quick success...and later discovering ..as we did that it was not as successful as originally thought. It is very hard to do long term research on diesel engines. One may invet hundreds of hours and thousands of $ in a test that takes years to cuminate. And often they are only successful in that they demonstrate one needs to try a different approach.

So...here is the deal. If you do not want me to provide ANYadvice just tell me..I will be happy to stop posting here. But if you do want me to present advice you must accept that it will be cautious advice that respects the fact that it is not your intent to ruin your engine...only run it on VO fuel.  You will also have to accept that I will challenge what I believe to be inaccurate information.



Dana
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SCOTT

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2007, 11:19:36 PM »
May I suggest that both Fatty and Dana take the high road and both continue posting.  The internet is a vast source of information, some accurate some not.  I believe most of the people on this board have enough independence and intelligence to develop their own opinions on various topics. Including the debate over 2 tons of concrete vs resilient mounts, VO/WVO, biodiesel in a modified or unmodified engine as well as other unconventional fuel mixtures. 

What I would like to see more of, from anyone willing, is hard data of power output and  consumption rates of any and all fuel people want to spend the time testing.  In the end, the real world numbers make it easy to determine which option is best in a given situation.

So Fatty and Dana put your differences aside and get along, you are after all both adults right?


Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
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danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2007, 11:35:59 PM »
Quote
So Fatty and Dana put your differences aside and get along, you are after all both adults right?

From prior experience I had best just ignore the personal jabs that Fatty makes.
And since I will be unable to devote any time posting for several weeks any way the animosity may just die on its own by the time I return.
Dana
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mobile_bob

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2007, 11:45:15 PM »
personally i think that both of you should be allowed to argue your points however you see fit, and....

i also believe the dude from nw kansas has a place at the table of debate as well.

also i have absolutely no problem with a debate that gets heated, and blunt,,, often times alot is accomplished
in doing so,,, it makes both sides think hard, and it also makes other folks do more thinking as well.

as with everything there are at least two sides to every debate,

i for one would be very interested if following a months long debate on the subject, GuyF and myself (among many others) spent perhaps tens of thousands of
key strokes in the debate on engine mounting,,, the end result was a better understanding of both idea's when it comes to engine mounting.

i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.


remember the famous line from snl?

(dan akroid to jane curtain)

"jane you ignorant slut!"

so don't get mad at one another or make it personal, neither of you should be married to your position, just support
your positions and continue the debate.

there is too much to be learned in the process for many folks that reside here,, me included!

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2007, 12:06:56 AM »
Quote
i see no reason that this fuel issue should not be as thoroughly discussed, and i see no reason why you two guys should not be the
primary combatants if you will.

I just don't have the time to waste at that type of activity Bob.
fatty inevitably makes it personal veryquickly by making unsupportable claims about me. he will not debate the facts. And the facts have already been posted many times in several forums. Repeating the arguments serves no good purpose. And considering the current demands on my time..both professional and that of family I simply cannot devote time to responding to personal attacks.
Dana
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