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Author Topic: New to the group,, saying hello~!`  (Read 37862 times)

sodbust

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New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« on: March 03, 2007, 11:54:27 PM »
Hello all.

I am a Lister nut, and am suprised I have not found this forum a long time ago.

I have a 6/1 GG
14/1 PS
28/2 PS

The 6, and 14 man a ST gen head
The 28 pulls my China 10 oil seed press.

Here is my web site about the press and my method of making bio diesel ,, easy!
 www.oilcrusher.5u.com

Give me an email and say hello.
pvffarm@ruraltel.net

Daniel (Sodbust) McAmoil
Penokee, Kansas USA

biobill

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 12:43:45 AM »
Sodbust,

  Welcome.   Found your dilution process very interesting. How does the oil/unleaded ratio end up? I've been reluctant to introduce gasoline into my diesels, how many hours on your equipment? No troubles?
                                                         Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

captfred

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2007, 07:23:42 AM »
Danial, welcome.

I too, would like more information on your svo/gas mix, and your centrifuge project.  Thanx for the link to your website, I found it very interesting!

Cheers, Fred

Geno

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Dan The Man!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2007, 12:03:46 PM »
Thanks for sharing your research.

Read this page guys it all meat, no chaff.
http://www.oilcrusher.5u.com/whats_new.html

Quote from Dans site
"My first test was with #2 diesel right out of the pump. I made a testing stand which was a small electric motor powering a steel disc running in a tray of fuel. I made a 1 to 1 ratio pivot to hold a roller Bering roller against the wheel running in the fuel. I had a scale hook added to apply down pressure of the roller against the steel wheel powered by the small motor.  #2 diesel would handle 4lbs of weight before stalling the motor. A mixture of 1 gallon of gas and 1 gallon of raw sunflower oil could support 16lbs of weight before stalling the motor.  No problem here, as my winter blend is 5 gallons of sf oil to 1 gallon of unleaded gas.  Summer ratios of 8 gallons sf oil to 1 gallon of gas..  So for engine upper lubrication, my fuel walks all over pump #2 diesel fuel."

Dan, if you want me quoting from your website here let me know and I'll delete it

Thanks, Geno

johnny williams

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2007, 01:07:57 PM »
Very interesting!!!!! I have read about this before but have not tried the process as I have no way of pressing my own oil. Wonder how it would work with waste motor oil?

danalinscott

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2007, 02:29:15 PM »
Welcome to the forum Daniel,

Quote
Here is my web site about the press and my method of making bio diesel ,, easy!

What your website describes is commonly called VO blending.

While I applaud your efforts at self sufficiency and understand your eagerness to "spread the word"
the process you describe does not produce biodiesel and calling it "biodiesel" tends to confuse people.
The biofuels movement does not need MORE misinformation to confuse people interested in joiningi in. There is plenty being shared currently.
I am sure it is not your intent to present misinformation or confuse people.

But some of the information on your webiste is interesting but not all that accurate.

For example:
It is not possible to experience a power gain (over diesel fuel) on this blend.
I suspect you have not tested this claim with a dynomometer.

There is no glycerine in VO.
Although the process of making (real) biodiesel does result in the production of some glycerols they are not being "removed" from the VO...they are being produced by the chemical reaction which created (real) biodiesel and THEN are removed.

You may also want to do some research on the studies done in North Dakota (and elsewhere) regarding shortened engine life and VO blends.

I hope I have not presented this in a manner that make you feel as if I have insulted you.
That is not my intent. I present this in th hope that you will take th opportunity to take a more scientific directionin your efforts and present more accurrate information on your website.

Not only will the people who choose to follow your lead be benefitted..I suspect you will benefit as well.

Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com

fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2007, 03:29:48 PM »
Hi Daniel,
First Welcome....
And I'm really impressed with your press and blending and website... great information...
I'd have to say I agree with Dana that calling your VO / RUG (regular unleaded gas) blend biodiesel is a bit misleading... but lots of folks call veggieoil fuel biodiesel.... Sometimes it's a little frustrating for us greaseburners... Dana and I and about 1,000 others regularly post on the infopop biodiesel forum...
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc
You should visit... there's a lot of folks who would love to hear from you... and also a bunch of other blenders like yourself to collaborate with... 
Anyhow, good luck, welcome and thanks for sharing your information...
John

biobill

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 04:23:35 PM »
  Been trying to noodle through this one - alternate viewpoints welcome
Seems to me that the bottom line on power or efficiency increases from changes in fuel only, is increased cylinder pressure from a given amount of fuel. This might be come from quicker combustion or more energy content.

So lets say we have a genset capable of 4kw on standard fuel. If we use the +25% fuel and make the same 4kw then everything should be OK right. Same cyl pressures to drive the same load.

But if we use the +25% fuel to it's full potential and make 5kw can we not expect a shorter engine life?

I purposely left out lots of variables to keep it simple but feel free to bring them up.

My point is that if you are using a fuel that shows a significant increase in economy then you'd better be careful not to increase your loads
                                                      Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

fattywagonman

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2007, 04:37:08 AM »
Hi Bill,
Not trying to be over critical but a 25% increase in power just by switching the fuel is a huge deal.... I use waste veg but I have also purchase new veg and have blended.... while the new oil does seem to have better performance I have never experienced this kind of radical change in output.

biobill

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2007, 01:53:57 PM »
Hmmm I thought so too. Got that number from the website.    Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

SCOTT

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 02:44:51 PM »
While it would be great to achieve a 25% increase in output by a adding unleaded to vegetable oil, the math does not add up:

Vegetable oil contains 130000 BTU’s per gallon
#2 Diesel contains 140000 BUT’s pwe gallon
Unleaded gasoline contains 124000 BTU’s per gallon

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1015a.pdf

If you displace any portion of the veg oil with a lower btu value fuel (unleaded gas in this case) you reduce the total btu content of the fuel blend.

If the purpose of adding the unleaded is to reduce viscosity of the fuel, it would be more cost effective to reduce the viscosity by using heat.  Heated injectors at 230-300f would bring the viscosity of the veg oil very close to that of #2 diesel.  The cost of these heaters would be paid for quickly by eliminating the need to purchase unleaded gasoline.

Now there may be some chemical reaction I am unaware of going on here, but on the face it sounds like any increase in output should not be possible. 

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

sodbust

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 01:54:29 AM »
Hello again,,

I can see that I touched some with my concept, and a few insulted with my wrong wording for the label name for my fuel. I will digest this factor and rethink a name for my bio/fuel/mixture/gas/push -water.

 I have not the access of a engine dino as such , but I came up with the next best item. I can see I need now to add this following data to my web site.

Early in my testing of my fuel, a friend came by one afternoon to see how my project was going. He was on his motor bike, and wanted to take 4 gallons of my mixture out to his irrigation engine. He figured there was about 400 gallons of fuel in the 1000 gallon tank and just wanted to sweeten the fuel with some lube.  He made it out to his well site early the next morning and his fuel delivery man was already there toping off his tank. He added the 4 gallons of my mixture to the tank and the tank was then finished filled. Before the fellow could roll his hose back into the truck,, the well engine picked up 65 rpms.. They both stood there with the mouths hanging open.. Now anyone who understands diesel industrial engines knows that under a fixed load, any increase in power is not only carrying the load but then pushing the governor closed to slow it back to its set speed. Once an irrigation engine is warmed up and the load of the water being lifted 300 feet at 1100 gallons a minute, a engine will stay at it set speed with in 10 rpm or less, for days at a time..  So 4 gallons mixed with 996 gallons of #2 triggered this engine reaction.  So later we used this 855 Cummins engine along with 2 outers, a Case IH 3.9L and a 7130 Magnum tractor running a pto shaft driven well.  All engines were started running a 15 parts #2 and 1 part, my fuel gained from 27% to 33% in fuel savings using the same load and rpms. We are talking data over 20,000 hours running time under load.  All the wells have gallon per minute meters and were all set at the same volume, and engine speeds.  By going to a 30% blend,, no difference in performance.  At 100% sf fuel,  the gains dropped about 10% on all engines.  The reason for this will be covered later. 

Items of notation,, all the engines gained from 10% to 13% turbo boost.  The exhaust temps dropped from 170f to 200f  using the sf fuel.  This is the first real head twister, as turbo gains in pressure is an offset of wasted heat. But the heat was less coming from the manifold to the turbo.. ? So I can only guess its still making pressure when the exhaust valve is opened.

Yes I agree, about the added performance and shorter engine life, but all the gauges are pointing to better  engine life figures, and the engines run smoother..   This is my comparison.. Any one who ever fired a black powder rifle knows what I’m trying to say. A black power gun has a slower burn, and a steady increase in barrel pressure till the bullet leaves the end of the barrel.  I almost makes a sound like a “thump”. Now smokeless powder is fast burning and makes a sharp “crack” when it goes off. In some testing there is almost an implosion factor happing when the bullet just exits the barrel.   You can feel the difference with your shoulder!  I feel what’s going on is this fuel I’m blending burns slower and longer at lower temps.  The sound of a diesel running on my fuel has no ignition ping,, its more of a thud idling.

I have a semi, 11.1L 18 wheeler, with about 20,000 miles with my fuel.  Pulling a 42 ton load, the difference in power is wonderful.  I can now play tag with the bull haulers who are famous for running 500 to 600 hp in their cowboy caddies. It was hard for me to keep up with them in hilly country while empty before..

I understand the numbers about the BTU content of each fuel. It just not there!  Now I am going to try to pass along the data several fuel chemists told me..
They started off explaining to me that for the last 15 years, they started to remove the polymers from the fuel (gas and diesel) to cover the demand for the plastic industry, and chemical company’s.  They said that the polymers were a very important place holder in the element chain of the dino fuel.  They also pointed out the fact that all dino fuel has a very large unbalance of carbon.  “So with the veg oil,, loaded with hydrogen, and oxygen, and polymers,, which all react with the catalyst reaction with the RUG,, making a super fuel”.  The combustion is not totally dependent of the oxygen in the compressed cylinder air, there is oxygen microns laid right along with the carbon, and hydrogen in the fuel..  Overwhelming..

Now for my reply about all the collage testing done from the mid 1970s into the 1980s.. I have read hundreds of them. They get the idea of running veg oil in a diesel engine. The then hit on John Deere and Cummins to have a free test engine.  Fill the tank with SVO, and load it up.. Bingo, 50 hours the engine fails due to stuck piston rings and a torched piston.  The conclusion,, it does not work.  Well they are right. It will not work.  I can tell with in a day if my mixture is too weak, as my engine oil carbons up from clear oil one day to a black slime the next.  That’s what I refer to as a wake up call.
 
Now for the fellows using the 2 tank system and are heating veg oil.. Great!  I can not do that as to many of my engines are computer controlled pumps.. The heat over 200f will toast the wiring inside the pumps.  Been there and done that some $1975.00 later !

Now another item that has happened.  I had a horse trader cowboy from west Okla., call me one night… He was not a farmer, nor had time to press seeds. He had 3 Duramax Chevys pulling horses all over the USA.  He said the  $3.00 fuel was killing his profits. “What can I do he pleaded”.  Well off the top of my head ,, I told him to go to  the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank.. Well he called me several days later, wanting to pay me for my help. He said his pu went from 12mpg to 18mpg on his first tank.

Another bit of data..  We started to use a B2 blend years ago from my fuel supplier.  I could see a gain in performance.  Went to a B5 and then to a B20..  With the B20,, I lost power.  Had to shift back a gear with my tractors.  So when I started to get constant results with all my engines, and some 20 other friends testing for me also,, I ran into my fuel man in town one day.. I knew he was running a B50 blend in his fuel delivery truck. I told him to add a few gallons of RUG, and let me know how it ran..  He was almost dancing in the streets. His fuel mileage jumped from 9mpg up to 13mpg. 

And to the ones worried about gas in a diesel,, we have use some gas in our #2 for 3 generations on the farm in the winter. Some 600,000 hours of use over the last 80 years. Not one pump failure other than the one I cooked using heated veg oil.

I hope this clears up some issues.. I can not explain it, other than something magic is happing..  It goes beyond common understanding of BTU content and all that..

Take care,
Daniel,, sodbust.


rmchambers

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 05:22:55 AM »
Daniel,
   thanks for the write up, it seems almost too simple to be real and the results certainly do.  That being said, it wouldn't be a hard thing for anyone to try out since all the ingredients are easily obtainable and no strange processing is required.

I'll have to ponder it, I don't see how it could harm the internals on a diesel engine the way diesel fuel in a gasoline engine will.

thanks

Robert

sodbust

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 02:04:33 PM »
Robert.

Up to about 10 years ago,, we got a  80%gasoline/20%#1 diesel blend ,, which the fuel sales called "Power Fuel"  It ran great in lower compression  tractor engines with allot of intake heat.  With a mid 1960s car engine, with 8.5 to 1 compression,, one would have to retard the timing 3 to 5 degrees to control the ping.. The fuel supplier sold it $0.10 to $0.20 a gallon cheaper than regular gas.

I must have been raised in an area where anything goes?

Daniel

Biloxibad

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Re: New to the group,, saying hello~!`
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 03:41:04 PM »
This sounds very very interesting, Any where ya can save a nickel,  withoiut damaging equioment always get's my attention.

My current genset is a Jianyang model ZH1125 (looks just like a changfa)  powering a ST15. But I have a listeroid 6/1 on the way to carry lighter loads..

I am in the process of setting up a woodgas/diesel. The diesel part is to be used  a pilot to ignite the gas once warmed up and running, (Thanks Doug!  Your past posts have been an inspiration)

Back to the topic at hand , blending the fuels as above
Quote
I told him to go to  the store and buy a cheap gallon of cooking oil.. Take it home and mix it with 2 gallons of gas and add that mixture to his 40 gallon pu tank..
Quote

The cost at today's prices yields aboout a 2% cost increasefor the blend  over #2 diesel.. (veg oil $4.00 gallon, gas $2.59 /gal,  #2 diesel $2.59 gallon) 

Most of the literature I can find claims once set up,  the diesel is 80% replaced by the woodgas.   I guess, My question is whether one would expect to see this same savings in  dual fuel setup... meaning use even 25% less diesel... The end result could be only 15%  diesel used for a hard cost saving..

Can the group show me if I am headed down the right road on my thinking?   

Also,. How would one go about finding a supply of $1.00 a gallon vegetable oil in quantity? 


Steve
Metro lister6/1
Jiang Ling zx1125
ST15
Baldor 20 3 ph 3450
Baldor 10 Hp single phase 1750