Author Topic: 50 hz gen to 60 hz  (Read 16173 times)

Ironworks

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50 hz gen to 60 hz
« on: February 13, 2007, 10:09:19 AM »
Hi

A guy at work gave me a gen end.  He said it works but its 50 hz.  I know you just spin them faster to get 60 hz but doesn't that increase the voltage to?  Will a 60 hz voltage regulator correct the problem?  Or, is there a simple adjustment you can make to convert 50 hz to 60 hz without an increase in voltage?  Thanks

binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2007, 01:44:47 PM »
Ironworks,
I can't be of much help to you, but am interested in the feedback you get. I have the same problem with an SOM gen. head imported from England. I would like to keep the original heavy flywheel on the head..don't know if it can be modified to a smaller size pully to make it spin faster..or will have to resort to getting more speed out of the engine? I think T19 was having similar problems & had his gen head rewired. (I have no idea what was involved there.) or if there is another way to approach the problem. Will be interested to hear what the Sparkies on the list have to input. Many thanks for bringing this one up. binnie
 
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

buickanddeere

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 02:43:53 PM »
  It's pretty safe to spin a 50hz generator end up to 60hz speed. As for the prime mover that's something else.
  With the same level of excitation that gave 120V at 50hz the 60hz rpm will push the voltage to 120% or 144V. A good working voltage regulator should dial that backautomaticaly withtout a fuss.

binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 03:34:46 PM »
Tks Buickandeere,
my problem is that at 50hz I will be getting 220v and at 60hz...god knows. Will wiring to the pannel & a regulator take care of cut back to 110v ? Or do I need a major rewire on this thing. It is British made & designed for 220v output but at 50hz only. Tks for your input. I am learning. binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

adhall

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 03:58:45 PM »
Binnie:

As buickanddeere pointed out, the output voltage scales according to the speed if the excitation stays constant. So a 220 VAC 50 Hz generator would output about 264 VAC at 60 Hz.

You may be able to reduce the output voltage to 110 VAC with regulator adjustments. I've operated a 250 kW generator at relatively low excitation levels without seeing any problems, but that was a modern machine with a modern regulator. I would say try it and see, I can't see how you would hurt the generator by doing this.

At the same time, bear in mind that that by lowering the voltage this much you will be reducing the power rating of generator by approximately half.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2007, 05:13:59 PM »
Thanks Andy,
There is also another side to this genset that prduces DC for automatic top up of the battery that starts the gen head itself...and acts as a starter for the prime mover. Will the DC side of the out-put be affected by running at the higher speed. (by installing a smaller pully to achieve this on the gen head) ? Or will I need some kind reduction system built in to limit the amount of DC to the battery???
Don't want to melt the batteries! binnie(I think you can tell I am not electrically savy...don't intend to do any installations myself...just need to understand the process). Tks

Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

adhall

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2007, 07:08:07 PM »
Binnie:

I don't know what to say about the DC side--I don't have any experience with the type of generator you are talking about. I'm guessing there must be some kind of voltage regulator if it is intended for charging batteries.

Do you have any documentation on this? A wiring diagram, perhaps?

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

solarphil

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2007, 08:58:49 PM »
Binnie

The SOM's have a low capacity starter battery charging circuit which will increase output voltage with increase of speed.

You may have to fit a voltage regulator to limit the charging current - a simple rheostat (wire wound) could serve to drop the extra voltage generated.

My SL2 SOM has two settings for the output carge rate - I'm not sure if the 6-1 SOM has this

Solar_phil

M61hops

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2007, 09:27:15 PM »
Hi guys, I'm new here but thought I'd throw in my two cents worth; just remember you get what you pay for!  First off, what kind/brand gen head is this?  I don't think it's practical to reduce the field current back that much so as to get 110V out of a 220V machine, you should use a transformer if you can't center tap the output windings.  If there is a regulator for the battery charge voltage it will probably take care of itself, if not either disconnect the charge circut with a timer or adapt an older automotive regulator to protect the battery from overcharge.  It's very hard (impossible??) to give good advice without seeing the machine and a wiring diagram.  Having said that, I would probably get out my volt and amp meters and either a tachometer or Hz. meter and give it a few more revs and see what it does.     Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2007, 04:09:06 AM »
Many thanks guys for the input..gives me some idea of the problems I am facing with this thing I bought. It won't arrive till April next & does not have any manuals, wiring diagrams with it, just a lot of cast iron boxes with dials & knife switches. It is 1940's vintage english and I imagine totally designed for 250 v output. I may have to consider a modification of the gen head. Once here I will have it cleaned & looked at to see if I can keep the original housing with some type of rewinding modification and or regulator. It would be nice to be able to utilize the SOM start up feature but I would need the 220/110 v combo. If I could post picts I would, but "Coppermine" is beyond my expertise too!
There is an add-on flywheel presently attached.....perhaps I could run an STgen-head off it on the 6/1.
 I have a 12/2 with 10kw head now hooked up for back up power...the SOM was to be run in the eve.when less power is required. I thought it would save running the 12/2 for minimal draw situations.
I am looking at an eventual set up long term should the shit hit the fan & we really have to use these things seriously for long term power production. God knows where we are headed but it doesn't look to promising. Just like to be prepared & have some systems inplace.
Thanks for the input. I have my eyes pealed for manuals & wiring diagrams & if I come up with them ....will get back to you. Many thanks binnie (if you are interested in picts...send your email addy to dunhill(at)sympatico.ca)
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

bitsnpieces1

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2007, 12:46:59 AM »
  We used to have some especially voltage spike sensitive equipment that had to be operated from an "isolation transformer" to protect them.  They were essentially a 1:1 transformer and geberally had tapped connections for other voltages.  I don't see why you coyldn't get one of them to connect to the 240v SOM gen headwhich would give you 240/120v on the output leads.  It's a 1:1 transformer with a center tap for the 120v.  Speeding up a 50Hz gen head to 60Hz with the higher voltages could be handled with a mild reduction winding of 260v to 240/120v. 
  *This will add a little cost, but, maybe it would be less than a rewinding and the loss of an original SOM head. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2007, 12:49:28 AM by bitsnpieces1 »
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binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2007, 01:22:10 AM »
Thank you Bitsnpieces,
I will check into that one before I tear anything apart. Do you have any links for such a transformer? I did check out the step down transformer on ebay-uk but not too sure if this is exactly what I need.
Instead of importing another piece of heavy metal...I think I will look on this side of the pond once it is here.
Many thanks for your input: It gives me hope,  binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

Doug

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2007, 02:26:18 AM »
Somebody has a Sam Crosby Metro with the opposit problem....

If you can find the thread, I walked him threw how to set up and wire a transformer in " Auto " configuration to go from 120 to 240/120 eddison 3 wire......

I don't feel like retyping but the thread is here...

binnie

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2007, 03:21:15 AM »
Thanks Doug,
For the refresher. I remember reading that one. I will look for it. binnie
Listeroid 12/2 Jkson with 10kw head, for backup now on diesel. Future interests: WVO, bio,  Cogen - Heat exchangers - solar.

adhall

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Re: 50 hz gen to 60 hz
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 09:57:46 PM »
Binnie:

Here is a link to a manual on the Outback Power website:

     http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_manuals/X-240%20instructions.pdf

This manual explains how an autotransformer is used for load balancing and voltage step-down in a split phase system (which is what you want to do) and shows how to hook one up for that purpose.

Unfortuantely, the autotransformer this refers to sells for about $230 USD and is probably somewhat larger than what you require. On the other hand, it is readily available and clearly documented. And the price includes a couple of circuit breakers. Maybe you can get a deal on one through ebay.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor