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Author Topic: Ideal RPM  (Read 21477 times)

fattywagonman

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Ideal RPM
« on: January 12, 2007, 03:02:43 PM »
I think the the Petter runs best at about 1000-1200 rpm ... my engine are really smooth at this speed and seem like they could run forever... ... I've noticed that arrow rates there engines  at 400-800... IMO this is too slow.. the diesel vibrates a lot when run this slow due to compression / power stroke impulses... and efficiency is likely not much better at this speed than it is at 1200... the  indians run the engines at 1500 rpm when direct coupled to a 50Hz / 4 pole gen ... but at 1500 the engine is shaking pretty good...  we use 60Hz power which requires 1800 on a 4 pole gen.. I wish someone made a 6 pole / 1200 RPM generator so they could be direct drive at lower RPM... indian manufactures say the engine will run at 1800... at this speed the things shake like mad.. 1800 might be OK for a short time...  but at this speed I think efficiency, reliability and my nerves are being compromised.. 

hotater

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2007, 07:52:44 PM »
Welcome to the world of Indian engines. 

 I have three Mini-petters.   Two are smooth as glass up to 1600 or so.  (one is a run-a-way specialist that HAS run 3800 for a half hour without flinging parts)

 One 2.6HP  is NOT happy at anything over 875 rpm.  It will NOT smooth out at a higher rpm, but it's slick as a gut below that.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

fattywagonman

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2007, 03:07:03 AM »
Hi Hoater,
I have ten petteroids and they all have the seem to have the same vibration characteristics...

duh

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2007, 03:27:53 AM »
My 12 horse (7500 watt gen head) is good between 1800 - 2000 with impressive vibration above or below.
It also needs to be hot and be pulling a pretty fair load. Not long after the load disappears, the temp drops right off and it runs a bit stanky..

Voltage and hz are as rock steady as any generator combo I've used bar none....

duh
« Last Edit: January 13, 2007, 03:30:47 AM by duh »

rmchambers

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2007, 05:11:00 AM »
Duh,
  do you have a thermostat in or are you sucking all the heat out of the engine to heat the house?  It looks like you don't let anything go to waste up there.

PS: you sure got purdy teeth

Robert

fattywagonman

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2007, 03:19:58 PM »
Quote
My 12 horse (7500 watt gen head) is good between 1800 - 2000 with impressive vibration above or below.

I'm looking for better economy... at 1800 RPM a lot of fuel is consumed just to run the engine... this consumption goes up exponentially as RPM increases.. The main reason for the inefficiency at higher RPM is the pumping losses.. at 1200 RPM the pumping losses are minimal... but as you start to get much above this threshold  the engine really starts to get less efficient..  some years ago I did a little experiment with a 2 valve diesel.. Although it wasn't the petter the results should be similar... First run the engine with no load at 450 RPM and measure the fuel consumed over a period of time... let's say an hour... then run it at 900 rpm again measuring the fuel... it should burn a little more than twice as much fuel at double the RPM...  then run the engine at 1800 RPM... If RPM didn't impact efficiency the engine should burn about 4 times the original amount of fuel...  but the reality is the engine will burn about 5-6 times the original amount...  The inefficiency really goes up as you get above 2000.. yes the engine makes more power but you pay a hefty price in fuel consumption.. this is part of the reason that higher RPM diesels use 4 valves... 

IMO slower is better.. less stress on the parts.. and better economy..   

Doug

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2007, 03:25:19 PM »
Duh:

Can you share a littel more infor on that Petter of yours?

Is it a 102-110 or 102-116?

Doug

I went with the 116 DM10 crank because I was told this would work at 1800 and also produce more torque at the lower RPMs


rcavictim

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2007, 04:10:23 PM »
Duh:

Can you share a littel more infor on that Petter of yours?

Is it a 102-110 or 102-116?

Doug

I went with the 116 DM10 crank because I was told this would work at 1800 and also produce more torque at the lower RPMs



Doug,

FYI my real deal Petter PJ-1 is 96.8mm bore X 110mm stroke.  Call it 97 x 110.

Rated at 5 BHP@1000 RPM
```````10 BHP@1800 RPM
```````12 BHP@2000 RPM

Mine drives a direct drive 4-pole head at 1800 RPM.  Makes 5 kW comfortably before going into black smoke mode. 
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rcavictim

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2007, 04:30:23 PM »
Quote
My 12 horse (7500 watt gen head) is good between 1800 - 2000 with impressive vibration above or below.

I'm looking for better economy... at 1800 RPM a lot of fuel is consumed just to run the engine... this consumption goes up exponentially as RPM increases.. The main reason for the inefficiency at higher RPM is the pumping losses.. at 1200 RPM the pumping losses are minimal... but as you start to get much above this threshold  the engine really starts to get less efficient..  some years ago I did a little experiment with a 2 valve diesel.. Although it wasn't the petter the results should be similar... First run the engine with no load at 450 RPM and measure the fuel consumed over a period of time... let's say an hour... then run it at 900 rpm again measuring the fuel... it should burn a little more than twice as much fuel at double the RPM...  then run the engine at 1800 RPM... If RPM didn't impact efficiency the engine should burn about 4 times the original amount of fuel...  but the reality is the engine will burn about 5-6 times the original amount...  The inefficiency really goes up as you get above 2000.. yes the engine makes more power but you pay a hefty price in fuel consumption.. this is part of the reason that higher RPM diesels use 4 valves... 

IMO slower is better.. less stress on the parts.. and better economy..   

Fatty,

My engine testing coroborates your statement.  I also am after maximum fuel economy, but at the same time I am after minimal total hourly fuel consumption (not the same thing).  I have resigned myself to the reality that is you want maximum power output per gram of fuel you need to load your diesel up and run it around 75-80% max capability, but if you want to keep a genset running lightly loaded, in the interests of using the least amount of fuel you ought to have a means to slow it down below 1800 RPM for reasons you give and use batteries and inverters to get you back to standard 60 Hz line voltage.

I think you really need to have two different displacement diesel generator plants and that is the direction I have gone.  My newly added small one is based on a JD175 engine (353 cc) and will eventually charge my battery bank.  Exhaust heat is being captured in a heat exchanger to drive a fuel processor and the engine liquid coolant is available to make domestic hot water and heat the building (errr, more like move the thermometer upwards a miniscule amount.  ;D  ).  This small engine doesn`t make much heat throttled down.

My main plant at the moment is a 1.5 litre, 4 cylinder VW Rabbit diesel engine directly driving a 1800 RPM, 3-phase head. It is used to power my machine shop and heat the building from the radiator and radiated engine/exhaust system heat.  When not using my machines I often put a wooden spacer in the throttle linkage to close the rack to 1200 RPM.  This consumes far less diesel fuel per hour than light/no load operation at 1800 RPM, (due to the phenomenon you speak of) but the shop lighting on it and the reduced but still present heat output is still very useful.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

fattywagonman

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 03:16:16 AM »
Hi rcavictim,
You and I are on the same page... Check out my site at www.prontopower.com... you'll notice  I'm all about variable speed generators... or should I say constant speed generators with variable speed engines.. While the concept is simple it's not that easy to make a reliable variable speed generator... I currently use a variable displacement hydraulic pump driving a hydraulic motor on the generator... to make a hydraulic CVT... but it's noisy and costly... I would like to use a CVT but I'm not aware of a good one other than the Comet...

http://www.hoffcocomet.com/comet/oem-torque-converters.asp

Subaru Justy's used a CVT that could be placed between the engine and gen set to allow variable speed operation...

Here's a link to CVT for folks who don't know about them

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cvt.htm 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission
« Last Edit: January 14, 2007, 03:20:19 AM by fattywagonman »

Doug

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 03:43:00 AM »
Personaly if I went down that road I would be looking for an inverter from some place like Sunny Boy and modfiying it.

The most efficient way to do this is threw an inverter with a DC link or Possibly a modified alternator - cyclo converter - transformer combination.

Doug

rcavictim

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 06:15:08 AM »
Fatty,

I`ll have a look at your website and links.  Going with a CVT is a novel approach I hadn`t thought of.

I am of the opinion at this moment that a DC link to inverters is the way I will go since I have a wind tubine in the works and the power from that will be all over the map as far as voltage and frequency.  I can probably set up a motor driven variac to deal with the voltage fluctuations I think and use a transformer and diodes to make constant voltage DC for charging the battery bank.  Since I hope to have a lot more power available than my batteries and inverter(s) will need I am thinking of using the output of the wind head directly in resistive heaters as well to heat my house and shop.  These heating loads might be driven on AC directly off the wind turbine head, or on AC from the motor driven variac (voltage regulator).  I have a complete (40 kW?) residential electric furnace and the heater core from another, a huge one about 200 kW.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

fattywagonman

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2007, 06:51:27 AM »
Well I kind of put the variable speed generator / engine on hold and now I'm working toward a small automated personal power plant using the Pettergen, a Zantrex SW5548 and a bank of batteries... This has it's advantages since the 5548 has the ability to auto start / stop the generator and also easy integration of solar or wind power..

But I still think a larger variable speed gen has it's advantages... and nothing kills me like hearing a 50kw gen screaming away at 1800 RPM  only to be carrying a 3-5kW load... (the gens in tugboats are always doing this)   they run all day and never come close to the rated load... Or they may see a load of 30kW but only for a few seconds... and then it's back to 5kW...

IMO the real problem is a lack of energy storage devises and available inverters over 10kW... a 30kW inverter isn't a cheap investment... and then you need batteries... maybe the real problem is cheap fuel... when fuel costs more it would makes the higher initial investment in a more economical but more complex generator potentially worth while...   

ranexs

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2007, 02:32:32 PM »
Dear Fattywagonmann, have you concidered an automatic transmission. Perhaps with belt like snowmobiles do.

rmchambers

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Re: Ideal RPM
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2007, 03:23:44 PM »
Mr Wagon.

It sounds like you're thinking way into the future which is a good thing.  It would be great to be able to store all the excess energy you generate to keep the engine running in its sweet spot but in order to do that you'd need a slew of expensive/heavy batteries or some other way to store electrical energy as potential energy.

The SW series of inverters are pretty good from what I hear.  I have a DR myself and am very happy with it but I'd dearly love to have the same connections that the SW series have (gen power in, grid power in, battery in, ac out).  Do you have a couple of them ganged up to provide 220?

Are you grid connected at all?  the SW can be made to grid-tie so perhaps you could push back some excess power to the grid and run the meter backwards.  If you're not grid connected then ignore this.

Not sure where you get your water from etc but could you channel some excess power to moving water from one place to another place higher up such as from a well or cistern down the hill to a cistern up the hill so that your house needs wouldn't always require a well pump to kick on.  I liken this to the hydro plants that pump water from below to up the hill in the low demand periods - at least I heard that's what they do.

Since you're into biodiesel your fuel costs should be lower than most but thats no reason not to try and wring every last bit of benefit out of it as you are trying to do - so you're to be commended for that.

About the only source of large scale inverters I can think of would be from a commercial computer room UPS.  Some of them are very large and would almost certainly give you enough juice to do whatever you wanted.  The problem is getting one for cheap.  Unless someone is decommissioning one and wants to get rid of it (and the batteries too!) then you're looking at a big cash outlay.


I'll be interested to hear how you wind up doing this.

Robert