Puppeteer

Author Topic: EPA  (Read 21960 times)

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2007, 11:24:55 PM »
Dana:

good points, but

i would not assume the government will not mess with the little guy,
case in point

Guns:
25 years ago you could not legally own a fully auto m1 garand, but
you could by all the parts to make convert one yourself, just not all parts from the same dealer.
if a dealer sold all the parts he was in violation, but he could sell one part, another guy another part
and i could buy all the parts to convert one, legally

but i still could not legally own one!
(the laws may have changed for this by now i don't know)

today while it is legal to import, sell, and buy parts to build a lister
it is no longer legal to overhaul , construct or reconstruct a listeroid
will they inforce this law in respect to the little guy? who know's i doubt it.
but tomorrow who know's, it is certainly plausible that the new crew in power (congress)
could pump a bunch more money into the epa coffers to aid in inforcement.
we all know government likes to get bigger, and the dem's are noted for bigger government historically.

what i also know is the government likes education, and i cannot believe that the courts would allow precedence (sp)
and allow the government to attack a school no matter what type of school it is. (sort of a slippery slope thing)

my feeling is we as a people must be proactive, or little by little our rights will be taken.

now what i have been suggesting is not circumventing the epa reg's but rather playing their game
straight up. if they allow exemption for educational purposes, then perhaps they should be taken up on it.
the epa certainly is not in any postion to determine the legitamacy of a school, there are other beauracracies for that.
so if you follow the epa exemption, follow the beauracracy rules governing schools, then if they were to object they have to change the law, either with "what is a school" which they have not say in. or they have to go back and rewrite the epa reg's and remove the exemption, which in effect limits the right of a school to do valid research.

they have put us in a catch 22 so to speak, why not exploit the law's to return the favor and lock them into a catch 22 as well?

if i as an individual took on this task, what is the worst they could do to me? not a damn thing apart from perhaps changing the law and confiscating the engine. if i followed the hoops, and found the loop holes and was in compliance they could not fine me or find me guilty of anything. as long as...

i kept careful research record, pictures, documentation of ongoing experimentation (as most are doing anyway right now), they would be hard pressed to prove i am simply just a user of some dirty,pollution spewing engine that the law was written to get rid of.

i could also contact a village in africa, establish some ongoing communication with research results to further their ability to get dependable power where none existed before, we know of at least one university that is doing just that!

the worst that could happen is they prove that you are not running a school or test facility, and pull your exemtion, and scrap your engine.

or i guess they can get Janet Reno to come back and ok shooting may ass. :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2007, 11:45:37 PM »
i dont think we can simply "stay under the radar"

by 2010 the epa standards are going to be so strict and the public awareness is going to be so
high that the radar will be at ground level.

another example

back in my home county the infrastructure is so poor that they do not have anyone to enforce compliance with
code inforcement, so they wrote into their laws that folks like the mail man, meter readers, county agent etc. are to
report all questionable activities.

is it a large leap of faith to assume that the epa won't enact the same tactic's?

i think it is prudent to at least discuss being proactive and not just sit back and hope nothing is going to happen.

how many would have thought the listeroid would have gotten caught in the current legislation a couple of years ago?
i think it caught alot of us by surprise, i know the speed of which surprised all of us.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

danalinscott

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2007, 11:51:38 PM »
Quote
if they allow exemption for educational purposes,

Are they..REALLY?

I have not seen this exeption...or the hint of it.
Do you have a link or lead I canuse to track this down.

I am skeptical at this point...but that is my nature.
This would be a relativly easy loophole to exploit.

As for the EPA mobilizing against the littel guy...they really are not interested unless commerce is somehow invloved.
I speak from experience.
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2007, 12:00:46 AM »
I'm usualy not interested in things that don't affect me unless scotch is involved....

This have no relevence to the subject at hand. I just feel ignored and want to ramble and mutter nonsence now

Doug

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2007, 04:45:47 AM »
I also note this:
Standards for Engine Owners/Operators. Depending on the engine category, owners and operators are responsible for emission compliance as follows:

Engines < 30 liters per cylinder
Pre-2007:
Engines < 10 liters per cylinder must meet nonroad Tier 1 emission standards.




Has any one actually tested a listeroid to see how far outside of tier 1 compliance they might be?  I know this was a big issue with the import of chinese tractors last year.  I have a 2005 28HP Jinma with a Y385 engine(IDI).  That same tractor is still being imported but it now has an EPA cert with no apparent major modifications(looked at a new one today at a dealer).  I know some of the larger tractors have had to switch engine manufacturers, but they are still able to import them.
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

ronsmith

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 116
    • View Profile
    • Bentleybranch studio
Re: EPA
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2007, 04:24:49 PM »
I read an article in the new york times about owners of outdoor boilers having complaints filed with the EPa against them over smoke and emissions. From what I read it is forcing the EPA to tighten reg. on the boiler manufactuers . the epa said they had many complaints on file and were looking at taking action.

europachris

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2007, 05:26:10 PM »
I read an article in the new york times about owners of outdoor boilers having complaints filed with the EPa against them over smoke and emissions. From what I read it is forcing the EPA to tighten reg. on the boiler manufactuers . the epa said they had many complaints on file and were looking at taking action.

Those outdoor boilers ARE a nuissance.  It is amazing the great clouds of dense white woodsmoke that can belch forth from those things.  I've seen them blowing smoke across a road due to the wind and it was zero visibility for a short moment driving through it!   :o

They are also horribly inefficient.

Chris

rmchambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2007, 05:46:39 PM »
I heard more about this elsewhere too.  Those outdoor boiler huts work well if you use decent wood and keep them nice and hot, but when you start burning crappy wood the emissions go up and the neighbors complain.

I'd venture a guess that the outdoor boiler devices pump out a lot more "contaminants" that the EPA looks for than a lister would.

Robert

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2007, 07:58:41 PM »
So do most wood stoves, particularly when "banked" for the night.
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

tim

  • Guest
Re: EPA
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2007, 01:10:44 AM »
Most of the white smoke from these stoves is moisture. If the wood is seasoned they will not smoke no more than a regular stove, plus it heats my hot water.
tim

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2007, 01:44:45 AM »
A loaded stove with the draft restricted releases a lot of C0 and and tars. This is a waste of fuel and does cause polution.

A good fire is hot and clean burning with a slight over suply of air to ensure complete combustion.

This is harder to do that it sounds but consider this....

Would you drive a car and control your speed by opening and closing the choke?
By over fueling a fire and restricting its oxygen your doing the same thing with a wood fire....

Doug 

rcavictim

  • Certified Generator Head and Grand Master Sparky
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2007, 05:21:47 AM »
I supplement the heat in my home with a commercially made woodstove in the basement.  It has an air control and output deflector that pushes the exhaust gasses throiugh a heat exchanger once the stove is warm.  The instructions suggest loading the stove and restricting the air for all night long burns but I never do this, recognizing the facts as stated above.  I burn with full air all the time and only have to clean my chimney once a year at the end of summer just before the next  heating season.  By sitting unmolested all summer and air/moisture exposure the creosote just crumbles off easily with the cleaning brush.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dualĀ  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

rmchambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 505
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2007, 05:39:21 AM »
I also have a woodstove which I burn when it is very cold (so not often this year).  The only way to control the fire is to starve the fire of air.  The stove also has a set of pipes in the roof that allow all the air that can go in (which you can't control).

What happens is the fire gets going and you choke it down, the wood then smoulders and the gas from the wood rises up to the air tubes where it mixes with fresh air and starts burning.  There's a rolling flame along the top of the firebox and the heat from this keeps cooking the wood to release more gas (destructive distillation I believe it's called).

As for the chimney, I throw the chimney crystals in the fire and have very little buildup in the flue.  I inspect it once a year and have only cleaned it a few times (every few years).

Robert

Doug

  • Guest
Re: EPA
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2007, 03:38:34 PM »
Thats a good stove....

I hate the crap stove you see being sold at Cambodian tire and some of the discount stores. These smolder and smoke....
Worse still are the outdoor boilers that have no fire brick or the home built jobs with cold water jacket walls....

Wood burning should be a clean and efficient way to heat, and it should leave a smaller foot print.
But too many people out to make a quick buck or DIYs buy or build badly thought out stoves that don't allow full use of the fuel and contributs to smoke and polution that has given wood a bad name in some many places.

Doug

rcavictim

  • Certified Generator Head and Grand Master Sparky
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
    • View Profile
Re: EPA
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »
I also have a woodstove which I burn when it is very cold (so not often this year).  The only way to control the fire is to starve the fire of air.  The stove also has a set of pipes in the roof that allow all the air that can go in (which you can't control).

What happens is the fire gets going and you choke it down, the wood then smoulders and the gas from the wood rises up to the air tubes where it mixes with fresh air and starts burning.  There's a rolling flame along the top of the firebox and the heat from this keeps cooking the wood to release more gas (destructive distillation I believe it's called).

As for the chimney, I throw the chimney crystals in the fire and have very little buildup in the flue.  I inspect it once a year and have only cleaned it a few times (every few years).

Robert


Robert,

That set of pipes in the top of your stove sounds like the same setup as mine has. The manufacturer refers to mine as a catalytic converter or something.  I never thought of it as any more than a heat exchanger.  My upper control bypasses this `converter` to improve the draft, necessary when starting a fire.  My stove has a full door ceramic clear viewing window (nice!) and is made by Heritage.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dualĀ  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion