EPA

[Guy_Incognito]

I'm just glad I live in an environmentally irresponsible country, where I can run pretty much any sort of engine I like off-road. 

Some of your regulators would have a seizure if they saw me mowing the lawn with my old 2-stroke.
"Hmm. A dollop of oil in the tank oughta do it. Jeez *cough* it's a bit smokey! Oh well... better too much than too little."

[1966Crew]

Looks like Mike may be throwing in the towel if his next batch of engines does not pass tier 2 emissions standard.

From his website: http://www.listeroids.com/Prices.html

Quote "We are no longer accepting deposits on any engines.
The container is full and no new orders can be taken. Those who have a deposit on file are assured of receiving their engines.  As of January 1, 2007 all new engines must meet EPA Tier 2 Emissions standards. Once these engines arrive we will begin testing to meet Tier 2 standards. There is no guarantee that they will pass. If they pass we will resume imports. If they won't pass Tier 2 standards then it will be the end of an era as no further imports will be possible legally. There are some dealers selling kits of parts for home assembly but this simply shifts the burden of EPA compliance to the assembler, who then becomes the "Manufacturer of Record" and is STILL liable for EPA compliance and the fines of $32,500 for non-compliance with EPA Tier 2 standards. We won't sell "kit" engines."end quote

Wonder what happens to the engines if this batch does not pass tier 2? Reading the text above customers have put deposits on engines that are not in this country yet and may not be legal to sell as of January 1.

I am sure Mike has something figured out since I am sure he would not import a container of engines just to have them sent to the scrapyard.

Jon
   

[mobile_bob]

i have been thinking about this all day, and i cannot accept that the law is written so tightly that there is not a loophole
that can be exploited.

last night we were joking about church of lister, and school of lister, but seriously i wonder if there is not a huge gaping hole
somewhere in the law.

for instance,, ( i would have to go back and read all the epa laws) it seems as though there was an exemption for educational purposes

there are schools all over the country for all sorts of whacko stuff from engineering (the normal) to ufo's (the paranormal), and they all get
to some sort of 501c(3) or somesuch.

i really wonder why there cannot be a "lister institute of technology", with branchs all over the place, test facilities all over the place.
we have online universities don't we, from those that are accredited to those that are not.

because of the very nature of a listeroid, they are always under development are they not, always under experimentation, always being modified, observed
and modified. much the same thing that goes on in a research dept of a college, true?

i really do wonder,

i also think there is a time that one has to take a stand for what he believes,

i also wonder how the court would be able to disqualify "lister institute of technology" if the paperwork was filed properly and no tax law's were circumvented.

for the courts to take a stand against "LIT" they would also open the door for all other schools to be attacked and disqualified, something that is never going to happen.

if a school was set up, incorporated, then an importer could bring in engines destined for the school.
the tuition to the school would coincidentally be approx the same as what a listeroid sells for, afterall the student must have
a test subject (sort of like books, materials and labfee's etc)

now perhaps the student would be expected to document his experience with the test subject, and post periodic
reports, and be graded by one of the schools professors.

call it crazy, but it maybe crazy enough to work.

bob g

[Doug]

I know a gaping hole Bob....

 

Doug

[mobile_bob]

ahemmm

(standing with my back against the wall)

i know, it sounds nuts, but crap there are schools from palm reading to every friggin thing else under the sun.

why not "listeroid institute of technology"

heck we could even have a football team

i can see it now,,, the "listerbowl"  a thanksgiving day classic

a marching band,

beer parties???

haahaha, now i got your attention

bob g

[mobile_bob]

we could even invite GuyF as a guest lecturer

too funny

i think i would be willing to pay the filing fee to incorporate

you have to admit haveing the corporate seal hangin on the way, for "listeroid institute of technology" would be pretty damn cool

and to think i havent even had my first drink tonight.. hahahaha

bob g

[mobile_bob]

i seem to remember an exemption for schools, and educational purposes, somewhere in the fine print..
i guess if it is not there

my dream is dashed on the rocks, before it even got out of the gate...

would still be cool to have the corporate seal though

alternatively
lets compare your way, sport use..
lister race driver?  hmmmm, i wonder what kind of pit groupies are attracted to that?
do we get neat leather helmets and goggles as well?

oh oh i know,, a racing jacket?? yaaa, thats it

maybe we can get in the gate at the ihra and nhra events for free??

or get into the sky box for formula one, and get to drink champagne and eat caviar

or maybe we should just stick to starting a monestary, except i remember Waco!
but we could hide behind the lister,  they are bullet proof aren't they?
too funny

bob g

[rmchambers]

If Janet Reno's crowd came to take over the Lister compound all you'd have to do is set one of them going rack full open and hide in the bunker.. the shrapnel from the exploding flywheel would be a deterrent to anyone coming close. (Assuming the assault lister wasn't mounted on a concrete block which shifts the center of motion out to the arctic circle somewhere).

Robert (LIT Student)

[mobile_bob]

wow,,, looky looky
we got our first student

are we witnessing the birth of a new institution?

i guess we will certainly now need a Dean of students, Dean of Admissions, and a buttload of professors, research scientists, someone to man the library
and IT department.

and we need someone to set up all the fraternal orders,

who wants to be the football coach???

and then duplicate this or at least parts of it for every branch campus in north america.

its gonna be huge, i tell ya,,,HUGE!!!

mwuhahaahaaaaa

bob g

[Joe]

I want to be Coach of the Cheerleading Team...tryouts starting at noon...pompoms optional....

[danalinscott]

As a serious aside...
As a vo fuel consultant I know that the EPA can provide waivers for legitimate research purposes.

I obtain these regularly for fleet clients. The savings on fuel cost more than ofsetts the cost of the research. Andit IS legitimate research.  The EPA is not an organization to screw with. Believe me.

I suspect that it is possible to obtain waivers to use listeriods for legitimate research.

Although I cannot provide specific guidance on how to do this...if anyone is interested in seriously discussing  the subject I may be able to provide SOME useul info.

I also see seom possible legal loopholes that might allow individuals assembling their own listeroids to use them legally. Import of whole engines seems to not have any loopholes I canfind.

The  largest loophole I currently see is due to this exemption:
"Engines used only for emergencies, for example stand-by generator sets, are exempted from the most stringent Tier 4 emission requirements. "

I also note this:
Standards for Engine Owners/Operators. Depending on the engine category, owners and operators are responsible for emission compliance as follows:

Engines < 30 liters per cylinder
Pre-2007:
Engines < 10 liters per cylinder must meet nonroad Tier 1 emission standards.

[ronsmith]

I dont know if this new bunch in congress will hang us with the EPA.....humm are they smart fellers or fart smellers

[danalinscott]

From my contact over the last few years I have found the EPA has very little interest in "little guys" as long a they don't "taunt" the EPA at the same time the EPA is beng tolerant of them.

I have very little fear that the EPA will get involved in a private individual producing their own power with a  listeroid...or folks inporting the individualparts which can be assembled into a lrunning engine.

[sid]

I think  that we need to apply for a federal grant to get the university started// sid

[dkwflight]

Hi
I agree as long as we "Stay under the radar" we will be OK.
As soon as some one complains, like a neighbor, then watch the crap hit the blower. Even then he might not complain to the right person to get the EPA excited.
So if you have close neighbors, talk to them. When people understand what you are doing the will be more tolerant.
Dennis