Author Topic: Safety Modifications  (Read 36694 times)

dieselgman

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 05:36:27 AM »
A fuel rack shutdown is a much more comon type of shutdown used on many generations of Listers. Murphy also makes an inexpensive version that kills the fuel supply on a 12volt impulse (or loss of same). The only comment on this that I read indicated a failure mode wherein the fuel rack was stuck wide open. Are there many instances of actual fuel rack seizure on these engines? Caterpillar, Cummins, John Deere, and so on (with the exception of the GM Detroit 2-cycle) all use fuel control as the means of emergency shutdown. That is the direction I would go for inexpensive yet effective engine controls, especially emergency shutdown.

Gary
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clytle374

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 04:25:08 PM »
Good question, anyone have a fuel rack stick on a listeroid?? 
Saw it happen on a bulldozer last summer, sickening to watch a diesel over-rev to death.

Cory
 

mobile_bob

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 04:41:05 PM »
i am not trying to force an issue but

lets analize the options

1. fuel supply shutoff, takes several seconds to min or so for the engine to stall, probably not useful

2. fuel rack shutdown,, effective 99+percent of the time, unless the rack gets jambed or the linkage fails or binds, or electrical fault

3. decompressor, effective 99+ percent of time, may cause damage to engine if the engine is over rpm (runaway), possible linkage binding, electrical fault,  etc.

4. air shutdown, 100% effective and is tested each and everytime the engine is run (by design), failure mode, failsafe to engine stall, electrical fault results in engine shutdown.

things to consider, the need for emergency shutdown is of course of those rare times something is going very wrong and this is usually the time that one gets pumped up
with adrenalin and cannot think clearly, this is not the time that you want something that is supposed to help you go haywire and require thought, fiddling or repair.
you want it to work 100% of the time, everytime without input from the operator, other than a panic button that is bright red and easy to reach.

in my opinion

bob g

bob g
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hotater

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 04:52:30 PM »
The fuel rack danger is more from having a pin come out of the governor linkage than 'jamming'.

After having run-a-ways on Mini-Petters a couple of times...

I'm in favor of 'cut off the air and raise the valve lifter and shut the rack'.  All three and all together, but design each part of the system to operate even if the others don't.  That way if a fuel rack jams and the safety system FAILS, the air shut off should work anyhow and the valve will be raised so it's not going to run much longer.

Having said that-- I still haven't figured out how to rig sensors to activate the mechanical emergency stop.   :(

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

sid

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 04:53:39 PM »
I agree with bob that the sure way stop a diesel is to shut the air supply off.. the easiest way is to install an exhaust cut out in the intake/ jc whitney sell one (ZX241628R) it has a cable to shut it off or it could be controlled with a home made solenoid/ sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
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SCOTT

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 06:56:18 PM »
I made the frame for the flywheel/ gen belt side of the engine today, picture below.



I used 1" 14 ga square tube, the cost for 24’ was $25.  The two pieces of sheet metal above the engine and gen flywheels was just scrap I had laying around.  The remaining open part of the frame will be covered in expanded steel, as found here: http://www.mcmaster.com/ part number 9302T83

I had a concern about the frame wobbling and was going to use 2” x 1/4”, this concern was unfounded, it is rigid enough to do the job as is.  If I get motivated enough I will eliminate the far left "point" by adding another diagonal piece and cutting the "point" off.  There are (4) 3/8” bolts holding the frame on to the steel base, this allows for easy removal if needed.  I plan on mounting my engine gages on the frame in a panel I made, so far the gages are hr meter, water temp and fuel temp (for wvo) I will have a separate panel for the electrical gages.


Best regards
Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

adhall

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 08:04:32 PM »
Another point to consider is that runaway can occur if oil gets into the combustion chamber from some other source than the fuel injector. In this case, shutting down the injector pump does not stop the engine. This is what happened to me when my VW diesel ran away. In this case, crankcase oil got into the air filter by means of the crankcase breather. In my case, I was able to stall the engine by applying the brakes with the transmission in high gear, but an air shutoff would have done the trick, too.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2006, 12:27:37 AM »
I had an air cooled Lister single about 30 years ago...I got it cheap and it had some blowby.
One day I noticed that the air intake was internally pipe threaded, so I got a pipe plug and screwed it in while the engine was running.
It Did Not Stop.
It just wheezed away, kinda slow belching out great gouts of black smoke.
I believe it was sucking air out of the crankcase up past the rings, and maybe some air thru the intake valve guide. But no air was comming in thru the intake port, that's for sure.
So I don't believe in intake air dampers for shutdown on 4 stroke engines.
On the other hand, I don't think a diesel will run if the exhaust valves are held open.
Scott E
PS;
Guy, that was the story you pulled up the chair and got out the popcorn for....sorry, it wasn't very exciting, just revealing.
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sid

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2006, 12:45:03 AM »
running with the exhaust valve open//had a run away mini petter/ask jack how fast they will run when they are stuck//my first thought was shut fuel off. could not find fuel rack on injector because of speed and viberation.. next thought was hit the decompression lever/ slowed a little but was still running away... next thought was if I could out run the parts when it blew//not many people can run that fast/  finally knocked off air filter and got hand over air inlet to stop it// I still do not how it kept running with the decompression lever ingaged but you are welcome to start it up and give it a try// I guss it was like a machine gun that gets hot and start to cooking off the shells//releasing the trigger has no effect on it// I will leave the guns questions for jack////sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

duh

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2006, 12:54:11 AM »
Your decompressor must not have been working or engaged all the way. I have the 10hp Petter single and when you hit the decompressor it will not produce any power and coast to a stop....

duh
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Petter_Gen/Petter1.html

mobile_bob

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2006, 01:07:22 AM »
all bets are off in a runaway!

you get an engine up to 4 or 5 grand, i want the air shut off, period

with the air off it is always possible for the engine to get air from somewhere, but it aint going to continue to
run at anywhere near unsafe rpms, leaving you capable of finding a way to kill it.

i still vote for choking the bastard

seen too many runaways, and have also seen the results of stuck govenors, linkage etc with hd trucks and it is ugly
and the driver at the very least needs a change of undershorts!

do as you will, just play safe, and don't come crying if your engine cannot be safely shutdown in a runaway situation
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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sid

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2006, 01:17:30 AM »
duh// the decompression works fine// if not I could not turn it thru compression stroke.. a petter normal runs about 1500 rpm or less but get one up to 3-4000 rpm and all bets are off/ If i remember correct, jack checked the rpm on his run away petter and it was some where around 3800 rpm/ correct me if I am wrong on that Jack/// believe me,it will make you change your under ware.with the fuel rack open it kept injecting fuel and would not stop/  been ther and done that/ I have several run aways/ several on the mini petter and several on antique engines. one when a govenor spring jammed and one when the detent on the govenor broke// I am never more than 10 feet way on an antique engine. because of the age, anything can break and usually does///sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

haganes

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2006, 02:28:41 AM »
my lister TS2 a few years ago ran away.  diesel in oil - when engine got up to temperature the diesel vapors made their way to the combustion chamber.

i agree that the only way is to choke the bastard.  it is not perfect but slows it down enough that you can kill the rack and use the decompression lever and eventually stop the engine without destroying it,

captain steven
B & W Alpha 404 (280 hp @ 350 rpm)
Mercedes D231 (100 hp)
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rcavictim

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2006, 03:13:06 AM »
CO2 fire extinguisher plumbed into the intake manifold.
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dieselgman

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2006, 04:00:17 AM »
The instance that SHIPCHIEF mentions is the reason for a fuel rack control on the majority of Listers built since the 1960's. These engines are built with a small vacuum bypass in the intake manifold that would likley allow the engine to continue running (barely) even with intake blocked. This is not the intended outcome of the design but rather a by-product of their method of achieving a slight crankcase vacuum. Another consideration... a fail-safe may not have to fully shutdown an engine to be effective in preventing a runaway.

I am not surprised that the Detroit Diesel trained people will lean heavily toward air-shutdown. By the way, I have seen many failures in the Detroit 2-cycle shutdown controls and shutters and in my opinion they are generally more complex and less reliable than fuel-rack servos. They do NOT always fail in the shutdown position but are as likely to fail in the open position thereby eliminating their function of protecting the engine.

What is the likelihood of a fuel rack failure or an overrev on a Lister CS? On other models I would say that the odds are pretty strongly against it even though they rely on mechanical linkages. The normal position for these mechanisms is shut-down, all the internal springs push that way except for the governor. The newer (1960's onward) designs have a spring loaded disconnect between governor and fuel rack so a governor failure will normally not cause an overspeed condition.

Gary,
diesel-electric.us
ALL Things Lister/Petter - Americas
Lyons Kansas warehousing and rebuild operations