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Author Topic: Safety Modifications  (Read 36690 times)

SCOTT

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Safety Modifications
« on: December 29, 2006, 04:03:22 AM »
Sensible Safety

I would like to solicit ideas/ procedures for everyday safety when using a Lister.  There is currently an ongoing discussion that deals with the real yet very remote possibility of a catastrophic failure of a flywheel.  I suggest spending the bulk of the energy focused on the more immediate risk.

Any reasonable person would agree that the Lister and Lister type engines are far more likely to cause injury to the operator because of  “operator error.”  And this would most likely involve entanglement of an operators limb(s) or clothing in a flywheel or serp belt.  With this in mind, why don’t we focus the discussion on the most likely cause of injury and ways to mitigate the risk?

There are many many pictures of proud Lister and Lister type engine owners showing their work.  I cannot recall even one that had a guard over the flywheel(s) and or gen head belt.  I am no exception; I am in the process of building a guard for the hand crank and belt side of my engine, but I have run it plenty of times with no guard.  I like everyone else (hopefully) have a healthy respect for the bodily damage one mistake can cause.  I have first hand experience albeit a very minor scrape with the potential of these engines.

While setting up my gen head I got a finger caught between the belt and the gen head pulley.  I was advancing the flywheel by hand, yet the momentum was enough to carry my finger onto the pulley and cause a lot of pain, some blood and a mangled fingernail.  If the engine were running I would have one less finger at best.

So let's work on something we can actually effect change upon, to protect against the most likely cause of injury, moving parts that can entangle the operator. 

Best regards
Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2006, 04:23:14 AM »
I'm mosy interested in a remote shutdown. Reaching over the flywheel kinda gives me the creeps.
Lister SOM uses a decompression device to shut down the engine.
Bruce uses a pneumatic cylinder to do the same.
I have an electric starter, so I plan to use the battery for a solonoid triggered decompressor.
I'll mount a STOP button on the control panel, and possibly in a few other places, not close to the engine.
I'll also wire in parallel some safety switches that 'make' to energize the solonoid. High water temp, low oil level / pressure, Murphy vibration switch; whatever I can get that a DIYer can find and apply. The control panel would have an 'ARM' switch so you could start the engine, establish oil pressure, then turn on the safety devices.
Also an alarm and rotating light might be added if you wanted to install some warning device before the shut down occurs.
I was wondering if an 55 gallon oil drum could be cut up and made to fit as a starter / flywheel gaurd?
Scott E
All in Hunter Green, of course.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

mobile_bob

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2006, 04:30:42 AM »
i would suggest an air shutdown for the intake
the damn thing will not run without air

perhaps a 1.5 inch ball valve (1/4 turn) with either a continuous duty solenoid or an air cylinder to hold it open
no power, no open, no run

if electric controlled it could be done with a relay and a momentary push button to enable run, and if the power was lost it would shut down
also vibration switches, low oil, high temp etc could be daisy chained into the control circuit

don't worry about the engine vacuum sucking up a bunch of oil, it aint gonna be much, and what there is will go out the exhaust.
just think of it as upper cylinder prelube :)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

dkwflight

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2006, 04:43:04 AM »
Hi
I have had several minor burns shutting down my lister and I was careless and backed into the flywheel. I have a nice 2 "scar on my calf. I don't have any reason to get close to the belt side when its running.

I am the only fool around my lister  ::)

If there were any possibility of anyone else being close to the running engine I would build gaurds. The best way is to keep kids and fools away from the running engine.

I really don't think any kind of gaurd that would contain a runaway engine flywheel explosion is practical short of a ring of at least 1/2" steel suported by heavy channel or angle struts.
Maybe Guy can "Do the Math" ;D for a suitable gaurd.
Any comments are welcome
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Guy_Incognito

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2006, 10:24:30 AM »
For help after you guys brainstorm a few everyday hazards, there's a link to a risk calculator and a few examples of how to use it here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1132.0

You can use that to figure out what to fix RIGHT NOW, and what to fix ".... one day, if I've the spare time".

In figuring out these things it's often a good idea have another person who doesn't use or operate the machine with you. Their eyes see many things as dangerous that you have come to see over time as safe and routine.

xyzer

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2006, 12:23:17 PM »
My Listeroids are both portable and the one thing I can say that is a negative about a balanced portable is a non-attended out of balance condition. I want to keep it simple so I plan on using an all mechanical cocking decompression device. When starting it you will go through the same motions only you will be cocking it. It will have a sear that is adjustable and a suspended weight that if it moves to far up or down fore and aft will pull the trigger and put the the decompression device in place. Sounds good anyway................. 
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

adhall

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2006, 04:42:09 PM »
Regarding an air shutoff device:

Please note that one of the members of this forum has already posted a nice drawing of manually operated version:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=0

One of the advantages of this design is that gravity and air flow work together to shift the ball and close off the intake.

I am am a strong booster of this type of device because of experiencing diesel runaway while driving a car in heavy traffic. Feeling the car continue to accelerate after releasing the accelerator pedal and turning off the ignition key was confusing and frightening--to say the least. I was lucky to have gotten out of the situation with only the loss of a set of glow plugs.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2006, 06:59:03 PM »
I'm with XYZER;
I favor what you called a 'cocking decompressor device'.
I plan to use 12 Volts from the start battery, but use only an short pulse of battery power to the solonoid to trip the trigger on the cocked decompressor.
My  design is very simple, and uses very little power, so a large capacity 12 volt starting battery wouldn't likely go dead while the engine is running, even if the battery charger tripped off. I know it's backwards from 'modern' continuously energized systems that kill the engine on 12volt power loss, but this is the way I picked. It's also the way that Detroit Diesel protected many generations of their 2 stroke products. A solonoid trips the trigger on the Detroit Diesel which drops a flapper over the air intake. I'll use a time delay to open the circuit after the trigger is tripped so the battery won't run down thru the closed oil pressure or temp switch.
Scott E
PS, it should have a manual trigger too.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Doug

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2006, 08:23:50 PM »
Kubota still does it that way on some products like the RTV. Its not been an issue unless you turn off the master switch before the engine has stopped....

Doug

clytle374

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 10:36:33 PM »
I plan on some second shutdown device, and maybe some guards.

Let me quote something i stole out of a product manual.

Warning: The warnings, cautions, and instructions discussed in this instruction manual
cannot cover all possible conditions and situations that may occur. It must be under-
stood by the operator that common sense and caution are factors which cannot be
built into this product, but must be supplied by the operator.


Cory

hotater

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2006, 01:29:15 AM »
I built brackets for a guard on the belt side because I thought I'd be adding coolant on that side. It turns out that's not the case so the guards aren't a high priority.

There are at least a hundred trigger/sear trip mechanisms to simply shove the decompression lever to the right spot by the simplest of mechanical energy devices, gravity...that's the easy part(for a gun designer), BUT  how does it sense trouble?   How does that sensor pull the trigger?  How much energy is available to pull the trigger?

I haven't had time to ponder on that, yet.    ::)

I think the safety 'net' of choice in a surburban setting for flywheels would be chain-link fencing.  Line the ceiling and walls with it and tie to the house with stringer cables but outside the living areas.  Race tracks contain about the same energy but rarely at ninety degrees to the fence.

 THAT is something to ponder!    :o
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2006, 03:17:13 AM »
detroit used the air shut off for years, as an emergency shut down and it is effective

the problems i see with fuel rack shutdowns are they (the fuel rack itself)  can sieze or jamb causing a runaway, very dangerous and scarey
and a solenoid to move the rack to shutdown would be ineffective, (the thing is siezed or stuck at full fuel)

the  decompressor to me is questionable in that a runaway engine may exhibit some valve float, and some stretch in the rod/piston and cause the
valves to contact the piston, may cause unnecessary damage.

the air shut down will kill the engine dead without damage, and at the very least should be seriously considered by anyone wanting to add
emergency shutdown capability to the engine.

if it is setup as normally closed (spring) and the solenoid has to be activated to open the air valve, then any interuption in electrical power will cause
it to close and stall the engine.. interupting the electrical power opens possibilities to numerous other protection components being incorporated or daisy
chained into the circuit.

i know the last part is repeating myself, but it bears repeating,, it was used successfully for many years on many millions of engines and it works
without fail.  you become a believer the first time you hear a detroit go for the sky (4000+ rpm and it takes alot of rpm to float the valves in a detroit!) you reach
for the emergency shutdown and it dies right now, no damage, no fuss , no muss.

detroit used a cable pull emergency with a lock and sear, and if you did any engine work you first made damn sure the system would trip,,,
the example i gave however would be tested each and every time you start the engine, if it failed the engine would not start , to start with.

thoughts?
bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Guy_Incognito

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 03:56:37 AM »
(Hey andy - that picture link goes nowhere for me - is it something similar to this?)

I was thinking with my resiliently mounted engine, that a simple air shutoff could be built as follows :

- Place a relatively soft rubber ball inside the air cleaner, above the intake, on something similar to a golf ball tee, or a teaspoon.
- When engine gets out of control and starts shaking on it's resilient mount too much, the ball falls off the tee and drops down to block the intake.

The size of the tee determines how much shaking does it - obviously you'd want it to be somewhere a little bit than your average startup/shutdown jiggles to avoid nuisance tripping. For a manual shutoff, you could weld the tee/teaspoon to a rod that goes outside your air cleaner and all you have to do is rotate it 90 degrees for the ball to fall off and shut the engine off.

Resetting it requires you open the air cleaner housing and fish the ball out, but that's nothing too serious. If need be, you could attach a bit of string to the ball and run it out of the housing directly above the tee, so that pulling on it would lift the ball back out above the tee and then lowering it would sit it back on.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2006, 03:58:20 AM by Guy_Incognito »

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 04:24:42 AM »
I love the simple elegance of the golf tee shutdown. Tee shakes, ball falls off, rolls down trumpet shape intake and gets stuck. Engine stops.
Are you related to Rube Goldberg? (I mean that as a compliment)
I have to stick with the decompressor because Lister SOM's used it without any (that I'm aware of) problems, so it's tried and true, and that's good for me.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

adhall

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 04:38:14 AM »
Quote
(Hey andy - that picture link goes nowhere for me - is it something similar to this?)

Sorry, Guy, I don't know what I did wrong with that link. I went back and found the picture again and this is the link I got this time:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=75&pos=2

If that doesn't work, you can go into the Coppermine Photo Gallery and search for "Air Shutoff".

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor