How to autostart a CS 6/1?

[buffdownunder]

Hi there,

I had a look at Sam's lister (warnepower.com) engines and managed to convince my friend to use one as addition to his solar system (in design phase). Welll he wants an autostart device that is controled by the power control unit. Sam promised to send me something on this as soon as he is back but my friend wants to go ahead now.

In order to make him still take a lister I need a solution on how to make an autostart device (and shut-off). Does anybody have plans, kits, ... to get this sorted out quickly?

Thanks
Edward

[jtodd]

I haven't yet found someone who can provide details on how to build one, or who can quote me costs for delivery of parts for a kit.  Therefore, I'm building my own electric-start. I'm going for a fairly portable design that won't be tied to one particular engine - it's belt-driven, so it can easily move between engines with slightly different flywheels, mounting distances, and mounting rigs.  Parts that I've collected for construction:

  - 11 7/8 Chevy flex plate (starting gear)
  - 6-rib serpentine pulley (I think it's about 4 inches in diameter)
  - two pillow bearings (for the ends of the shaft)
  - one 12v starter motor from a Chevy engine to match the gear pattern
     on the flex plate (153 tooth)
  - one 300 amp Leece-Neville truck alternator (12v)
  - one H taper lock bushing to secure pulley on shaft
  - one segment of keyed 5/8 shaft
  - long serpentine belt (don't know how long yet...)
  - 1/2" steel plate, around 6" wide and 23" long
  - lots of 1" tube steel for creating mounting framework(s)
  - some 2" tube steel for larger mounting framework

So the general thought is to make a small mount for the flex plate and pulley (like a ferris wheel, if you can picture it) and then bolt the pulley to the flex plate and key/taper lock the pulley to the shaft.  The starter motor will then engage on the flex plate, spinning the assembly (and pulley) which will in turn drive the belt and spin up the Listeroid.  The auto generator will be mounted pushing up from inside on the top of the belt, serving two purposes: first, obviously, to generate DC to recharge the starting system and to run all the other junk I have on the control system which is 12v.  The other purpose will be to take up the slack on the belt - the starting system will be fixed in place, while the alternator will be able to pivot and apply variable pressure on the serpentine belt just like in an automobile.    I didn't feel like having to design the starting assembly in such a way that it was on slotted mount points, so the alternator will take up the slack in the belt.

I have all the parts, and the base is being welded up now.  I'll post some pictures as soon as there's something reasonable to show.  The downside of the whole thing is that it's not cheap - all these little bits and pieces add up ($30 for each bearing, etc.) and so it's probably not going to be something that is an el-cheapo method of getting an auto-start.  The other minor downside is that to change the belt, you have to unbolt one of the pillow bearings, but that's not a big deal as far as I'm concerned given what I expect to be the life span of a 6-rib belt on this system. 

Other gotchas in my design:
  - the starter engine is mounted with the bulk of the starter towards the center of the rig, just like the ST generator.  This shouldn't be a problem because of my particulars, and I'm sure could be modified by others t match their needs.
  - requires an alternator (or at least a pivoting pulley) to consume slack on the belt
  - makes reaching inside the engine area HIGHLY hazardous (the flex plate is essentially a buzz saw) - no big deal for me, since I am automating the fuel rack shutoff, and since this has enough power to start my 12/2 without decompressing I don't need to do anything with the exhaust valve lifters during the starting phase so my hands will always be well clear

My design has a concept of automatic starting, too, where the starter is applied for N seconds and then (RPM, voltage) is examined to see if the engine is running on it's own.  If not, wait Z seconds and try again for Y cycles.  However, all the fancy stuff could just be ditched in favor of the "press the starter button until you hear the engine firing" method which is easily done by a human.  That's all electrical magic; I think the big trick to start with is to get the mechanical magic done and tested.

JT
 

[agroot]

I'd get the remainder of the system designed, and built.  Trying to do too much at once leads to problems.  

Autostart / stop, as I think that you have envisioned, probably requires a secondary electrical system.  You'd probably need to mount an electric starter, alternator, and  geared flywheel from a vehicle to the listeroid.  This will take some time.  Don't forget that working part-time, your first Listeroid will take about two weeks to put into service - if you have no major problems.  On the other hand, if you have problems, you are looking at up to six or more weeks.

If your friend must have a solution today, take a look at some of the 5KW Changfa generators out there.  For less than $1200 USD (here in North America), he would have a portable, off-the-shelf power plant.  Later, when the remainder of the system is in, he could add the Listeroid at his leisure.

If the need is not immediate, leave this part of the puzzle blank.  Design and build for-but-not-with the genset.

[bitsnpieces1]

  If you have access to a boatyard thast does work on charter fishing boats or sailboats, talk to them.  A lot of them have remote autostart gennies that work the same way as the Lister SOMs.  Turn something on and the gennie cranks up, runs and shuts down by itself.  The stuff I'm talking about is a control panel that performs all of the neccessary functions. 
  Here's a couple to look at.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLC%2CGGLC%3A1969-53%2CGGLC%3Aen&q=%22generator+control+panel%22&btnG=Search

http://www.generatorparts4less.com/panels.html

  Of course these are probably expensive and more than you need.  However an electrician who is well experienced and competent with timers and relays can make up one to suit.  Looking at a boatyard could very well hook you up with an older, fully functional unit that is being scrapped when a new generator is being installed in a boat. 

[jtodd]

  If you have access to a boatyard thast does work on charter fishing boats or sailboats, talk to them.  A lot of them have remote autostart gennies that work the same way as the Lister SOMs.  Turn something on and the gennie cranks up, runs and shuts down by itself.  The stuff I'm talking about is a control panel that performs all of the neccessary functions. 
  Here's a couple to look at.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLC%2CGGLC%3A1969-53%2CGGLC%3Aen&q=%22generator+control+panel%22&btnG=Search

http://www.generatorparts4less.com/panels.html

  Of course these are probably expensive and more than you need.  However an electrician who is well experienced and competent with timers and relays can make up one to suit.  Looking at a boatyard could very well hook you up with an older, fully functional unit that is being scrapped when a new generator is being installed in a boat. 

Nice control panels!   

Check out this other thread; links to pictures of the mount for the starting gear that I'm building. 

  http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1298.msg18767#msg18767

I found this control panel, which seemed to do pretty much everything I wanted:
 
  http://www.crompton-instruments.com/genset.html   (then select "Genset Controllers" from the pulldown menu for the PDF description file)

    GEN-TRANS-EN/L is the model.  Looks pretty snappy, and according to a reseller, costs $375.  What?  $375 is less than a single Crompton analog gauge, but apparently that's the price on this very full-featured controller.  However, I don't actually have it in my hands yet, so I'm fuly expecting to get the call where the reseller says "Oh, sorry, that's just for the wiring harness - the controller is $1500." or something like that.

JT

[Doug]

For that kind of money Square D has somethign I've noticed cropping up in some new substations thats been replacing th Crompton analog I'm used to. Power logics I think its called. Random buttom pushing on the units show me frequency, amps, volts, watts, PF, kwh in a nice back lit LCD display in a 5 inch panle moutn.

Price, I don't even ask....

BTW this sprt of thing needs CTs...

Doug

[buffdownunder]

Thank you all for your great input. The electrical site is covered by a buddy that does all this stuff professionally. I was more interested in the mechanical part of engaging and disengaging the starter unit without adding anything to the balanced lister shaft.
The featured method looks nice and I will go with it. Thanks.

[jtodd]

Thank you all for your great input. The electrical site is covered by a buddy that does all this stuff professionally. I was more interested in the mechanical part of engaging and disengaging the starter unit without adding anything to the balanced lister shaft.
The featured method looks nice and I will go with it. Thanks.

Note that the method that I am using (shown in the pictures: http://www.loligo.com/lister/pictures/19.html) requires in it's configuration that the starter be counter-clockwise rotation.  This is not the "normal" spin for a GM starter, so a custom one is required.  There are Mercury marine starters that spin CCW, and in retrospect I probably should have used one of those since they seem to be a bit more avaialble.   Now, of course, I could have also flipped the starter motor over so it mounted from the other side of the flex plate, but I had some space constraints that prevented me from doing that in this application (maybe you don't have the same constraints and so you could modify the design slightly and use a "stock" GM starter.)

The other thing I'll mention is that I'm using a rather small 8-groove pulley because I had it on hand.  I'd suggest making the pulley as large as you possibly can.  You might even want to use one of the generator pulleys from the various people who make them.  This is because with the small pulley, I only get to about .8 RPS (revolutions per second) and that may or may not be enough to fire the engine (haven't tried yet - engine is not in "operating" mode in the current rig.)   The starter has no problem turning the engine over, also, but I can see the belt slipping when it hits the compression cycles which makes me think that a larger surface area would help for a more reliable turn.  So I think a generator pulley would do the trick, as long as it's smaller than the flywheel so as not to interfere with the starter motor.

Also, since this bit me it's worth mentioning: when you mount the pulley on the flex plate, make sure the belt won't rub against the flex plate edge - add spacers if required.  Hopefully the pulley you use will have a gap between the outer edge of the pulley and where the grooves start but if not be aware that you'll need something there since the flexplate tooth ring actually hangs over the edge of the flex plate a bit, so a perfectly snug fit between the pulley and flex plate may create an abrasion situation later.

I have the alternator in place as well now, but I don't have any pictures up yet.  The mounting method on that is a bit more dicey; I opted for "quick and easy" instead of "slow and difficult" and so it only gives me about 1.75 inches of belt slack absorption instead of infinite adjustment.  Maybe that's enough...

[buffdownunder]

Thanks for this additional info JT.
One question that might be really stupid. I looked at the photos of your starter setup and asked myself why you didn't put the flex plate on the generator axis. This way you save a belt, an axis, bearings, ......

Then I want to use a heavy duty charger that I have to recharge the starter battery so I don't need any additional alternator. Anything objecting against this?
Cheers,
Edward

[fattywagonman]

Here's another supplier of an autostart box
http://www.turbineservices.co.uk/auto_start.htm
and another
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/products/genset_controls/gen_set_as700.htm

[adhall]

Jtodd,

Regarding the problems with starter motor rotation and mounting:
What about mounting the flexplate on the generator pulley and then laying the starter in next to the generator? It shouldn't hurt any to have the extra flywheel mass on the generator shaft and it would save you the extra complication of the second belt as well as the bearings and shaft that carry the flexplate. I can't tell from the pictures if your generator frame is smaller than the flexplate. That would be critical to making this arrangement work, of course.

Best regards,
Andy Hall

[jtodd]

Jtodd,

Regarding the problems with starter motor rotation and mounting:
What about mounting the flexplate on the generator pulley and then laying the starter in next to the generator? It shouldn't hurt any to have the extra flywheel mass on the generator shaft and it would save you the extra complication of the second belt as well as the bearings and shaft that carry the flexplate. I can't tell from the pictures if your generator frame is smaller than the flexplate. That would be critical to making this arrangement work, of course.

Best regards,
Andy Hall

adhall:

There are two reasons I chose not to use that design:

1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank.  My chassis is exactly as wide (plus about 8cm) as the crankshaft (it's enclosed, and has to meet some space requirements I won't go into here.)

2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines.  I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.

buffdownunder:

I'm assuming when you say "charger" you mean a rectifier that converts AC voltage at xxxVAC/xxHZ to 12VDC? I wanted to have my DC "operational power" be separate from my generated power.  Again, I have no idea if I'm going to be swapping the generator head in and out - I might want to run 3-phase, or a water pump, or a hydraulic pump.  Therefore, I've put the DC power generation on a separate belt than the main driven load so I'm not held hostage to always running an AC genset.  This is probably a bit of overkill, but that's my weakness.  Plus, it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.

JT

[rmchambers]

adhall:

There are two reasons I chose not to use that design:

1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank.  My chassis is exactly as wide (plus about 8cm) as the crankshaft (it's enclosed, and has to meet some space requirements I won't go into here.)

2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines.  I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.

 a bit of overkill, but that's my weakness.  Plus, it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.

JT

I guess we know who is opening a branch to the global L.I.T campus soon!

[buffdownunder]

I understand JT. If you want to switch engines it makes sense. One question: Why do you want to switch engines? Isn't the lister so great because you will never need to move it?
Edward

[adhall]

JT:

It appears that I did not communicate clearly what I had in mind. Please pardon my persistance as I attempt to clarify:

1) I don't have the extra horizontal room in my configuration to mount the starter "outboard" of the flywheels, which is what would be required if the flexplate was mounted on the crank..

What I was suggesting was to mount the flexplate on the generator pulley, not the crankshaft. If the flexplate is large enough, you could mount the starter inboard along side the generator rather than outboard. You might have to turn your generator around to get the rotation right for starting.

2) I wanted something that was easily move-able between engines.  I expect that I'll be switching the engine out fairly frequently, possibly with engines that are only "test" rigs, so I prefer to have something that is only belt-driven for easy transfer between various configurations.

If you can do what I suggest above, you could mount the starter off the same base as the generator (so the center distance between the starter pinion and the flexplate stay constant as you move the generator). That should make changing the engine easy as you wouldn't have to worry about the starter at all.

Best regards,
Andy Hall