Author Topic: Water treatment  (Read 10539 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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Water treatment
« on: December 12, 2006, 03:42:56 AM »
Hi All;
Preventing corrosion in the waterside of your engine and cooling system is very important, but also very easy.
Your home hot water tank has a magnesium anode in it to protect the tank, and the water is still totally safe to drink.
If your engine cooling system is 'Closed Loop' with an expansion tank on the side, to prevent air bubbles from being entrained in the water flow, then you can stop internal corrosion with a magnesium anode.
Here's a link to the Elysator company:
http://www.iwtna.com/page1.htm
This site explains how it works in any closed loop system. The technology is not new, and I don't think it's patentable.
If you include a 'Cyclonic' swirling tank with a gentle flow rate, the scale cleaned out of your system will settle in the bottom where it could be drained from a low point ball valve.
Elysator makes them for megabux, but they look like a propane bottle to me, with tangent water inlet and outlet, anode inside, bottom drain and top air vent.
The engine and boiler components I've seen that were protected by this technology were in great shape, some were pretty old too.
Make sure the anode has good electric conductivity to the engine or radiator or the cyclonic tank so it will work.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

Stan

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2006, 04:04:07 AM »
Water is exactly the topic I've been thinking about lately.  Penelope is almost ready to reassemble (just waiting for big end bearing and rings) and she's getting a new coat of paint. (at least the parts that i've been able to lug inside).  I've decided that I need "soft" water and since I've got a couple of feet of snow in the yard at the moment, I'm going to melt some snow to fill the radiator and engine with a 50/50 mix of water and antifreeze.  I've always thought the additives in the antifreeze, especially at this mix (we get -30 deg C here) is a powerful anti corrosion protectant.  Isn't this so?
Stan

jtodd

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2006, 06:03:03 AM »
I can't say I know one way or the other what solution is a good one, but this thread talks about using "straight" polypropylene glycol.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=684.0

I'd be interested in hearing more about any downsides other than cost.  Now, I'm also probably getting confused on the terminology here  - I can't says I know the difference between "polypropylene glycol" and "propylene glycol" - perhaps this is just a typo.  I found places selling "propylene glycol" but nobody selling "polypropylene glycol" commonly, though both chemical names are valid.

Anyway, back to the concept of sacrificial anodes: where would you put such an anode? Near the radiator, or near the engine?  Would you ensure electrical connection with (bolted onto) either the radiator or the engine?

JT

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2006, 04:31:42 PM »
The Elysator tank has the anode inside the tank, which is made from mild steel. The tank can be connected to the system with hose.
So the electric circuit (ion path) that treats the water is inside the tank, yet it treats the water and protects all the metal components in the system. The junk cleaned from the system, like scale, and sediment end up swirling around near the bottom of the tank, so you put a clean bucket under the tank, open the ball valve in the bottom for 2 seconds, and all the crud drops into the bucket for your inspection.
I think they designed the tank to be a modular component they could sell and easily install at any power plant, hospital, hotel etc. but you could put the anode in a mild steel or iron pipe. You might not have the fancy sediment tank, but you could still remove sediment from the low point(s) where it collects.
In a traditional Lister cooling tank setup, the sediment would collect mostly in the bottom of the big cooling water tank where the water velocity would be lowest.
 
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

hotater

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2006, 10:58:01 PM »
 I've got the perfect place for it and the drain is already in place, but I don't have electrical continuity between that tank and the engine but both are grounded.  Will it work?
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 07:36:51 AM »
Yes.
Our anode tanks are connected to the engines by hose, and they work fine. Both tank and engine are grounded. However, the anode tank for the boiler hotwell is not grounded and it works fine too.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

bitsnpieces1

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 04:36:00 PM »
I've got the perfect place for it and the drain is already in place, but I don't have electrical continuity between that tank and the engine but both are grounded. Will it work?

  It'll work.  The closed circuit bit is between the anode and the metal tank it sits in, and the water itself.  Be sure to make a good electrical connection between the anode and the metal tank it's in.  The circuit completes through the water contained in the tank.  The rest of the system is protected by the water circulating through the anode tank to be treated and also simple diffusion through the water itself. 
  The protection on ships is from the anode through a good connection to the metal of the hull, then through the water to the anode.  Any metal connected to the anode/hull strap is protected, any that isn't connected isn't protected.
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

kltrider

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2007, 03:34:27 AM »
New Guy here. If I might ask? Has anyone on this forum thought about using "Evans Waterless Coolant" in a Listeroid? I use this in all my engines, including diesel pickups.
The link here will take you to the web page.

http://www.evanscooling.com/
Another advantage is cooling systems operate more efficiently. BTW, I do not work for them, or have any financial interest either.

jtodd

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2007, 07:01:53 AM »
New Guy here. If I might ask? Has anyone on this forum thought about using "Evans Waterless Coolant" in a Listeroid? I use this in all my engines, including diesel pickups.
The link here will take you to the web page.

http://www.evanscooling.com/
Another advantage is cooling systems operate more efficiently. BTW, I do not work for them, or have any financial interest either.

It looks like the same results can be had with the Sierra brand coolant, which can be found in more common supply chains (i.e.: auto parts stores.)  It's >94% propylene glycol which is what the Evans stuff is made of, and of course neither method requires a special pump since there is typically no 'pump' in a Lister-type cooling system.  I've not tried the Sierra stuff yet in my engine but I suspect it will be what I use on the next flush.  Not poisoning my dog is high on my list of things to worry about since animals are in close proximity to the engine - storing used antifreeze is a big problem, and I'd rather not have to worry about it.

http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/tech.html  - take a look at the MSDS.

JT

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2007, 12:11:37 AM »
The problem with coolant treatment products is that Listeroids leak. At the least, you could spend alot on make-up treatment.
Sometimes the cylinder sits too high above the cylinder block deck, and even though the fire ring seals well to the head, the water side oozes out thru the poorly compressed composite sandwitch of very thin copper (the bread) with some asbestos looking stuff inside (the mystery meat).
Various meathods of soaking furniture wax, gasket shelack etc have been tried with different degrees of success.
Also the base gaskets may seep. Mine did after I cut up some manilla folders for new base gaskets...or maybe just the edges are swelling up because the water drools down from the head gaskets?
Also: when you tear down your engine, be sure to use a sealant on the cylinder studs. They thread thru to the crankcase, and a few of mine seeped water into the oil. I used water pump and thermostat gasket sealant in the grey tube (Permatex or the competitors brand I forget)
If you use a glycol coolant treatment and have a water leak into the crankcase, the glycol will strip the babbit right off your bearings.
That's probably not 'good'. :'(
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

aqmxv

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2007, 04:38:58 PM »
Quick note from the resident (ex)chemist:

Propylene glycol is used in all kinds of industrial processes and is a liquid at room temp.

Polypropylene is a thermo plastic (polymer) commonly used for food and beverage containers and cheap rope.

If there's such a thing as polypropylene glycol, I don't know what it's used for.

And yeah, the oozing of a listeroid is an issue.  But it sure would be nice to get the water jacket above 212F without pressurization, and waterless coolants should allow this.
6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen

rpg52

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2007, 05:59:31 PM »
Just a FYI, most of you likely already know this, propylene glycol, the expensive antifreeze is edible (it's often added to ice cream), ethylene glycol is the old style, cheap antifreeze, but it destroys kidneys (often of dogs, it tastes sweet to them).  Solar hot water systems use propylene glycol, just in case they ever leak, you wont poison yourself with the hot water.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

ranexs

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2007, 01:05:43 PM »
Could it be possible to use engine oil as a coolant.
You could increase temperature without boiling and internal leakages would no be so dangerous.

rmchambers

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2007, 02:06:21 PM »
I thought about this (or rather fuel oil to pre-heat it) earlier but what I didn't consider was is the engine developed a leak and could suck in some coolant from somewhere (gaskets etc) then you've got a runaway on your hands.  There's another thread on this particular subject discussing various coolants and their pro's and con's.

Robert

phaedrus

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Re: Water treatment
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2007, 10:52:20 PM »
Leaks? None here. Fixin' the leaks and preventing future ones was essential. The king-nipples that fix to the 1” hoses are NPT thread. They’re screwed into adaptors to British standard pipe thread on the engine – I got steel adaptors rather than brass. Because BSP is different from NPT the adaptors prevent a significant leak source – incompatible threads. The hoses are from NAPA. The tank is “open” in the sense that it ventilates to atmosphere, but once the initial dissolved gasses vented on heating I have never noticed any visible vapor release through the vent-filter. The coolant mix is one tube of aluma-seal, a pint of soluble oil to 65 gallons of water and 3 quarts of nalcool. All this stuff cost about 25 dollars at NAPA. The dinural carry-over of heat seems to prevent frost danger, but if the machine were in a colder climate I’d have dumped in 20 or more gallons of glycol. Considering the lack of containment it would be propylene glycol – we drink the water around here and don’t want trouble with groundwater pollution. The static pressure at the coolant inlet is about 3 psig; it’s a tall tank. It’s got a 190 thermostat out a Chrysler. Isolation gate valves are located at the weldalets on the tank breast. The setup uses steel and iron throughout except for the gate valves, which are brass. The tank and engine are electrically bonded. There is potential for the gatevalves to corrode due to their zinc content, and I expect that they are slowly corroding. They act as sacrificial anodes, especially the upper valve, which is generally fairly hot, but the corrosion rate is very low due to the resistance of the coolant. This coolant mix is not too much different from the coolant you’d use in a machine shop, so I do not expect that an internal leak would cause any damage unless you let it go. There’s a vertical vinyl ¼” tube on the side of the tank about 5 feet long so at every start you can see if the coolant level has changed. (Of course a substantial leak would be obvious anyway.) Anyway the brass valves are only $10.00 each and when one does need changing it’s not going to be a big deal. There’s a brass hose bib drain valve at the tank hemispherical bottom and I paid attention to making a smooth transition there so crud would collect in the drain nipple. The hose bib is capped for security. If there were busybodies hereabouts I’d take the handles off the isolation valves too. Cooling system efficiency does not seem to me to be a material consideration with this engine because it uses no crankshaft power to circulate coolant and no crankshaft power to blow air through a radiator. Because it’s a stationary engine weight isn’t a factor (it’s in the neighborhood of 4 tons, counting the foundation – so who cares?). If it ever overheats, which seems very unlikely, we will consider adding a heater core or a fan or just more tank – more tank being the “best” in my opinion. This one’s about 65 gallons with a lot of surface area, tall n’ skinny, but I have 120 gallon tank, cut open, that would fit almost as well. Tanks are free, by the way – the well driller and the propane guy both have piles of “condemned” steel tanks that are workable for people who know what they’re doing. Welding on tanks, especially fuel tanks, is a matter between you and God. I’ll do it, but only with proper precautions, and I don’t take chances on explosions and fires.

Seems to me that the main thing to observe with respect to water treatment with these engines is to prevent freezing in the jacket, the secondary thing is to minimize cavitation damage – that’s what the nalcool’s for, and the last thing is to use only ferrous materials so that the galvanic potential is about equal throughout the cooling water system – if I could have bought steel gate valves cheap I would have – and I have a weather-eye out for some “free” ones I might get from the ‘fitters on a job….
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