Author Topic: DC alternator  (Read 27919 times)

Scott Castor

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2006, 05:38:26 AM »
Before I started reading about asynchronous motors used as generators to back feed the grid on the "      Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!" forum, i thought the best and safest way to back feed the grid would be to spin a DC alternator through an inverter.
Most alternators are fairly small in amperage, but the ones made for marine and motor coach applications are bigger. The large frame alternators are best because they dissipate more heat than small frame alternators. Ample Power makes some sweet alternators. http://www.amplepower.com/products/alt/index.html 
I thought the Ample P-Type Alternator, 24 Volt, J-180 #4110 would be adequate (24 volts x 180 amps=4320 watts). I use 19560 watts a day so 19560/4320=4.5278 hours of operation. Xantrex SW4024 Inverter is grid-tie capable and will disconnect from the grid if it goes down to avoid islanding. This inverter would allow you to back feed the grid, have battery back-up, and with all the safety needed. This inverter is 90% efficient, so my 4.5278 hours of operation gets multiplied times 1.1 for a total of 4.98 hours of operation to zero my days usage. ;D
The only problem: price. What is a Listeroid 6/1- $1000? The Ample alternator at http://www.pwrtap.com/products/alt/index.html is $1199.95 and the Xantrex 4024 at http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~product~Sw4024+4000w,+24vdc,+120vac+Quasi+Sw~ic~XANSW4024~eq~~Tp~.htm is $2068.85 for a grand total without batteries or wire is $4268.80 I better keep working. Though, not bad compared to solar. Guerrilla power with safety! Caio- Scott C.

Procrustes

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2006, 06:40:14 AM »
Before I started reading about asynchronous motors used as generators to back feed the grid on the "      Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!" forum, i thought the best and safest way to back feed the grid would be to spin a DC alternator through an inverter.
Most alternators are fairly small in amperage, but the ones made for marine and motor coach applications are bigger. The large frame alternators are best because they dissipate more heat than small frame alternators. Ample Power makes some sweet alternators. http://www.amplepower.com/products/alt/index.html 
I thought the Ample P-Type Alternator, 24 Volt, J-180 #4110 would be adequate (24 volts x 180 amps=4320 watts). I use 19560 watts a day so 19560/4320=4.5278 hours of operation. Xantrex SW4024 Inverter is grid-tie capable and will disconnect from the grid if it goes down to avoid islanding. This inverter would allow you to back feed the grid, have battery back-up, and with all the safety needed. This inverter is 90% efficient, so my 4.5278 hours of operation gets multiplied times 1.1 for a total of 4.98 hours of operation to zero my days usage. ;D
The only problem: price. What is a Listeroid 6/1- $1000? The Ample alternator at http://www.pwrtap.com/products/alt/index.html is $1199.95 and the Xantrex 4024 at http://shop.altenergystore.com/itemdesc~product~Sw4024+4000w,+24vdc,+120vac+Quasi+Sw~ic~XANSW4024~eq~~Tp~.htm is $2068.85 for a grand total without batteries or wire is $4268.80 I better keep working. Though, not bad compared to solar. Guerrilla power with safety! Caio- Scott C.

Yeah Ample is a good brand, and I know a little bit about the owner and have confidence in him.  I wouldn't hesitate to buy there myself.  I haven't personally bought anything from him though.

If you have a well pump it's most likely 240V, and may croak your inverter or your budget.  On the other hand if you get a a diesel that's big enough for your peak power, it will be suffer from under utilization, which is hard on diesels.  I don't think there's any easy answer.

Maybe running a big genny and selling power back to the utility is the way to go.  You'll save $700 on the alternator, plus no battery bank.  That way you have plenty of power for standby use, and you can produce the juice relatively quickly.

In this case I'm not sure what to do about the inverter.  You wouldn't need an inverter per se, but the power companies require islanding protection.  A guy at my utility implied that they more or less require an inverter for net metering.  I haven't been able to find any alternatives.  Bansonyankee posted some IEEE specs that may or may not be pertinent here: http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=25.msg172#msg172 .   Note that he's usin the induction motor in place of alternator approach, so I may be off base.

FWIW I heard that when all's said and done a battery kW hour costs about $0.20, or more than twice what my utility charges.

I've seen solar quotations around $5,000/kWh.  PEAK kWh, that is, so probably it's $10,000 per average kWh where I am.  Yes, you may be adding equity to your home but personally I just don't see it.

Listeroidsusa

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 05:19:33 AM »
I've got another load of ST generator heads on the way. The ST line also includes  AC generator and welder combos. I've got several of those coming also. If they have DC commutators for the welder as well as an AC stator it would be easy to convert to a heavy duty starter/generator. When they get here I'll see how they are made. It'd be very good if they could be used similar to the original Lister Start-O-Matic sets.

Mike

Procrustes

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2006, 06:54:16 AM »
If they have DC commutators for the welder as well as an AC stator it would be easy to convert to a heavy duty starter/generator.

What a great idea.  Come to think of it the alternator and a starter are nearly the same device.  I guess this was evident in the Start-o-Matic thread which I didn't read.  Let us know how the look.

trigzy

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2006, 11:48:06 PM »
I've reviewed several of the chinese wiring diagrams on those gen/welders.  They are usually run off the same windings, just with a a recifier.  So I wouldn't get your hopes up.  Didn't you review the wiring diagram before ordering the generators?

Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2006, 01:35:38 AM »
Maybe he has actualy found a syncronous converter of sorts still being manufactureed in China Steve.
I know there are still some being manufactured in France as a sort of "mechanical inverter".

Now what we actulay need, and no one is talking about it is a copy of the Onan 205 series generator head from the 50s/60s, scaled up from the 2 kva to 5 kva and it looks like this technology has gone the way of so many cool but other wise not ecconomical viable electrical machines like RI motors and mercury recitifiers.....

Doug

trigzy

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2006, 02:34:32 AM »
China still makes some sync. converters, but most that I have seen are an electric motor and a generator, side by side wtih belt drive.  I asked why it wasn't direct drive, or manufactured as one unit - and didn't get much of a response.  (Of course the frequency changers are much harder to make direct drive due to thier natural RPM differences in 2 or 4 pole units)

I suppose I could google the Onan 205, but we'd all just rather have you explain it to us :)


Steve
Power Anand 24/2, Brushless 20kW, some other antique iron.
Vendor of AVR's, Small Clones of Yanmar Diesel and Honda Gasoline Engines

Doug

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2006, 11:49:43 PM »
Well the difference between a real sync converter and an MG set is there is an electrical connection trhough the windings on the ac side to the dc side. the the armature of the machine has slip rings for drawing ac power and a commutator for suplying dc power. The Onan 205 head let you start the genset like the old Lister start-o-matic, and charge batteries and suply AC power all in one machine.

Here's where it gets cool
Take a CK-205 genset and mount it on a truck as bell and hydro did inthe 50's and 60's. These sets were rated at 2000 watts, but the crews running the sets learned that if the trucks were running the alternator on the truck would feed back 12vdc to the generator head and power flow would reverse. Dc into the 205 head commutator would add another 500-800 watts to the bottom line.
The same idea was used in the 40s with the "Schrauge drive" a swedish engineer designed a system using the sync converter to add or subtract power to the rotor of wound rotor machines so you could have an efficient variable speed drive before electronics came along.

Doug

duh

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2006, 03:07:33 PM »
This works very nicely for me:
http://www.diesel-bike.com/Lister_Gen/Zena_motion.JPG

If set at full output on a large drained battery bank, it will effictively stop the 6/1 dead in it's tracks.

diesel guy

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2006, 10:12:57 PM »
These alternators are extremely efficient and well made.

http://eco-techalternators.com/applications.htm

Diesel Guy

bitsnpieces1

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2006, 07:06:35 PM »
  $750 and $595.  Pull the gennie to use and use still have an engine.  They're miltary DC generators.  4.2kw and 3.0kw. 
24vdc, 150 amps, 24vdc, 102 amps.  Engines are 6hp gasoline mil. engines. 

http://www.galleria-e.com/cgi-bin/Colemans.storefront/en/product/244901

http://www.galleria-e.com/cgi-bin/Colemans.storefront/en/product/240701
Lister Petter AC1, Listeroid 12/1, Briggs & Stratton ZZ, various US Mil. surplus engines. Crosley (American) 4cyl marine engine(26hp).

fireram

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2007, 01:34:23 AM »
Doug, i really should send you the information on the electrical equipment that came with my 5/1. Maybe you could help me?

Not too many people I have spoken with can tell me anything about my syncronous converter.

The Exploration company that was using my 5/1 had it coupled to a 17 amp 120 volt, 2500 Watt DC Generator.  This was some how? wired to a 2000 watt DC to AC syncronous converter, through a mannually adjusted rehostat.

I assume they may have needed both DC and AC power, perhaps the exploration equipment of the day was DC, and the lights were AC, i dont know... Why did they need the DC power, instead of converting DC to AC??

I was going to use the 5/1 and the DC genni to power a 5kw Xantrex inverter, and net meter the excess power to the grid.  I would really like to figure out how to wire the syncronus converter to an electonic control device that would automatically adjust the AC voltage depending on the amp draw, in place of the rehostat...

Down the road, some battery purchase for UPS, and some solar, maybe wind, and kiss the Utility GOOD BYE...

Maybe just a dream right now, but thats my dream....

diesel guy

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2007, 02:24:22 AM »
If I could make a suggestion,  the Trace 5548, 4048 ect produce very clean power. But they are one of the most unreliable inverter made, this is due to the advanced electronic controls. I know, I had two fail with minimum use. Look at Ebay and there are people selling them refurbished, their service life is not very long. They are a well advertised product and they are inferior. I would go with Major Power or Dimension industrial inverters. They are slightly more expensive but much better made. Outback also makes a good product. I just don’t like people wasting money on junk.

Diesel Guy

Doug

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Re: DC alternator
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2007, 12:01:41 AM »
Send me a PM Firearm:

I'll return my email, send me photos and every stich of info you have....

If you can get it working it will be more reliable than any electronic inverter.

DOug