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Author Topic: Fuel tank renewal  (Read 5454 times)

Stan

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Fuel tank renewal
« on: December 02, 2006, 08:35:47 PM »
I know what the POR 15 people want me to do to renew my fuel tank (some rust etc but not too bad) but the POR 15 procedure will cost over $100.  I know it would be the best solution however is there anyone else that has renewed a fuel tank cheaper?  I want to keep this tank as it appears to be original to the motor, and even has a little bit of the green paint left on it.
Stan

hotater

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2006, 09:17:29 PM »
What is POR 15?   Or is that the sucker question that brings on the spam?   :)

Find someone that does soda blasting on sheet metal.  (the ones doing bridges and shrimp trawlers may make thin material disappear!)

Soda blast leaves a smooth, but contanimation-free surface with no left over grit.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Stan

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2006, 11:03:13 PM »
Thanks Hotater, POR 15 is a coating (paint like) that goes on over rusted metal protecting it and providing an armored surface.  I've use it on VW bus frames and other rusted parts and it's great stuff (hardens using moisture in the air) but really expensive.  I'm going to put a bunch of sharp small stones in my tank with a quart of water and slush it around a lot to break free any loose stuff in there including rust, then clean it out and fill it with a weak muriatic (Hydrochloric acid) solution for a few hours, then empty and quickly dry it.  After that, I want something to coat it with that doesn't cost $100 for a smallish tank.
Stan

hotater

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2006, 11:52:29 PM »
Stan--

Hydrochloric is the wrong acid.   Use a product called "Naval Jelly".   Degrease the tank with strong dishwashing liquid and hot water.  Add a four ounce bottle of Naval Jelly and add warm water.  Slosh it around to mix the pink goo and water and coat the entire inside.  Do it several times over a 10 minute period.  THEN add pea gravel or coarse builder's sand and rinse that around several minutes.   Rinse with hot water.

Naval Jelly is a phosphoric acid/sulfuric acid and a binder.  It leaves a VERY rust resistant finish.  On very fine firearms it's called "French Gray" and is usually used in 'Bulino' style engraving work.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

sid

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 02:12:47 AM »
Stan// there are sveral products that are available to coat fuel tanks. most can be ordered/I have used several in antique engine tanks with varing results/ if you google gas engine magazine. there are several in every issue/ most run about $25.00 per pint which will do most small tanks// e mail me if you have trouble finding one and I will pass on several co,s names/sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

aqmxv

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 03:56:19 AM »
Stan--

Hydrochloric is the wrong acid.   Use a product called "Naval Jelly".   Degrease the tank with strong dishwashing liquid and hot water.  Add a four ounce bottle of Naval Jelly and add warm water.  Slosh it around to mix the pink goo and water and coat the entire inside.  Do it several times over a 10 minute period.  THEN add pea gravel or coarse builder's sand and rinse that around several minutes.   Rinse with hot water.

Naval Jelly is a phosphoric acid/sulfuric acid and a binder.  It leaves a VERY rust resistant finish.  On very fine firearms it's called "French Gray" and is usually used in 'Bulino' style engraving work.

Well said sir!  I'll expand a little, for those of you who want some background (or maybe because I like to hear myself type...), but you've got the rules dead-on.

<puts on chemist hat>

Muriatic (Hydrochloric) acid belongs to the family of acids made with a halogen (chlorine, fluorine, bromine, iodine).  All halogenated acids are very, very bad for metals.  Back in my lab chemist days we always avoided halogen acids like the plague.  It's not just that they're more dangerous (though, with the exception of HCl they are) than most other acids, they also are just about the only thing that does actual damage to passivated 316 stainless steel, which is the most inert cheaply-machined metal commonly available for lab gear (in my case, stuff like High Performance Liquid Chromatography pumps, tubing, etc).

Another downside to using hydrochloric on a fuel tank is that fuel tanks are often made of zinc plated or galvanized metal.  If so, the HCl will decompose into chlorine gas when it gets in contact with the zinc layer until it has eaten all the zinc off the steel.  Neither the evolution of poisonous chlorine, nor the removal of all the zinc is usually regarded as a good thing.

We generally used 6N nitric acid for passivation, which works well, but is pretty rough on human beings.  Phosphoric is a great all-round choice for cleaning random crap off of metal, and it isn't especially bad for people - doesn't fume much, and the by-products are relatively harmless.  Naval jelly is one way to get your H3PO4, the other, easy, over the counter way is with "Bar Keeper's Friend" which is used for scouring stainless sinks, etc.  Another convenient way to find it is in paint prep treatments like Ospho http://www.ospho.com/.

And yes, a phosphate coating on steel is a decent rust-preventative.  It's not as good as zinc chromate primer, but it does OK.  If you've ever handled a gun with a "parkerized" finish, you've met phosphate-treated steel.  The chemistry of parkerizing is more complex (and thus the rust protection better) than just phosphate treating steel, but phosphoric acid isn't a bad place to start, especially if you'll be applying a surface finish afterward.  The only way I have been able to make header paint stick to cast-iron headers over the long run is by spraying them with phosphoric/water solution after electrolytic derusting.



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listerdiesel

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2006, 09:06:34 AM »
I know what the POR 15 people want me to do to renew my fuel tank (some rust etc but not too bad) but the POR 15 procedure will cost over $100.  I know it would be the best solution however is there anyone else that has renewed a fuel tank cheaper?  I want to keep this tank as it appears to be original to the motor, and even has a little bit of the green paint left on it.
Stan

You could probably get a new tank knocked up for that $100! :-))

'Somewhere' in the workshop we have some new filler necks for the CS tanks, we were going to make a batch up and got the necks in from the people that made them for Lister. Not enough interest eventually so we shelved the idea. We still need a couple for our own engines, will probably get around to it one day.

Peter



Stan

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2006, 05:44:02 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I'll probably have to buy Naval Jelly down at Vancouver when I go after xmas, not much chance of finding it here in the Kootenays.  They don't even have shim stock available anywhere around here in case I need it for the new big end bearing I'm going to put in.  Maybe something available on line though.
stan

hotater

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2006, 05:49:47 PM »
Stan---

I bought my last bottle of Naval Jelly in the Jackpot, Nevada grocery store, but the only gas station in 'town' had it too.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Stan

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Re: Fuel tank renewal
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2006, 09:08:32 PM »
OK...I just found a site (Amazon no less) that advertises naval jelly made by permatex.  Our local flaps stocks a lot of permatex stuff so there's hope after all.
Stan