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Author Topic: Water Expansion  (Read 9061 times)

biobill

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Water Expansion
« on: November 15, 2006, 12:47:48 AM »
  Does anyone know how much water expands when it's heated. There must be a formula, but I can't find it. I need to allow for expansion in my unpressurized cooling system which utilizes a cast iron radiator. The hot inlet is almost at the top, so the radiator needs to stay completely full to keep the loop intact. Thought I'd run a small line from the bleed screw to a reservoir which I'd like to be as small as possible as it's in my living space. Trying to get it right the first time.

                                                   Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

aqmxv

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 02:40:23 AM »
here's a page giving the coefficient of thermal expansion of water and explaining how to do the math.  You'll have to convert your change in temperature to metric and you'll need to know the contained volume in the system (in metric as well).  Since there's going to be some volume expansion for the pipes, listeroid, tankage, etc as well it won't be ultra-precise, but should be close enough.

http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_water.htm

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Geno

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2006, 12:39:46 PM »
Looks like about 4.5% from 0-100°C
http://hypertextbook.com/physics/thermal/expansion/
My total volume is just under 5 gal. and I guess my expansion tank goes up by a pint when up to temp. It seems about the same between pure water and 50/50 antifreeze.
Thanks, Geno

biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2006, 03:05:29 PM »
Thanks Guys

I just love this forum,  Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

phaedrus

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 06:44:55 PM »
as a general rule pure liquids expand less than solutions. an anti-freeze solution in warter will expand more than an equal volume of water over the same temperature change - I'm pretty sure about this. I'd buy a bladder type expansion tank for water - check with Grainger to see what they have.
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biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 09:56:29 PM »
I'd buy a bladder type expansion tank for water - check with Grainger to see what they have.

 Don't think that's what I want in a nonpressurized system as the bladder would pressurize it when the water expanded. I did the math and if I allow for 16oz of expansion I'm more than covered. I had thought it might be more.

 Changed my design and decided to T off the hot feed to the radiator. I'll set an 8X2" nipple reduced to 3/4 on top of that with a plug on top. I'll drill a small hole in the plug for a loose fit around a brazing rod, put a float on the bottom of the rod and have a water level indicator. Also the 2" will make the system easier to fill and top off. Any steam that escapes will be welcome in my house in the winter. Can't wait to show Martha Stewart.

                                                          Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 10:10:22 PM »
I just finished setting up my system for a coolant mixture.  Holds 5 gallons, I used a length of 4" pipe for the expansion tank, a bit small but the only other thing handy was a 10 gallon milk can.  From a cold temp of about 35°F to full operating temp the level in the 4" pipe changes 2 to 3 inches, just eyeballing did not actually measure it.
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biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2006, 03:12:37 PM »
  Well, almost got it right the first time :-[.  What I didn't account for was the air that gets trapped above the top cross passage in a cast iron radiator, and, which also expands considerably when it gets hot. My "twice what I needed under the worst conditions" reservoir is inadequate by about four ounces. Back to the hardware store.
                                                       Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

rcavictim

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2006, 06:22:01 PM »
I'd buy a bladder type expansion tank for water - check with Grainger to see what they have.

 Don't think that's what I want in a nonpressurized system as the bladder would pressurize it when the water expanded. I did the math and if I allow for 16oz of expansion I'm more than covered. I had thought it might be more.

 Changed my design and decided to T off the hot feed to the radiator. I'll set an 8X2" nipple reduced to 3/4 on top of that with a plug on top. I'll drill a small hole in the plug for a loose fit around a brazing rod, put a float on the bottom of the rod and have a water level indicator. Also the 2" will make the system easier to fill and top off. Any steam that escapes will be welcome in my house in the winter. Can't wait to show Martha Stewart.

                                                          Bill

Hi Biobill

I seem to recall reading that you had put an engine in your basement of your residence.  Can you elaborate, what kind of engine?  How are you bottling up the noise?  I gather the cast iron radiator you are discussing here is located above the engine on the main floor?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
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biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 01:41:08 AM »
Quote from: rcavictem
Hi Biobill

I seem to recall reading that you had put an engine in your basement of your residence.  Can you elaborate, what kind of engine?  How are you bottling up the noise?  I gather the cast iron radiator you are discussing here is located above the engine on the main floor?

  Yes I did, but only because I didn't think the living room floor would support it. It's a work in progress, though so far I'm really pleased. The engine is a 6/1 Metro DI varient and I wasn't planning on bottling the noise - do you think there's a market for such a product? ;D  I'll post more info and updates here http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1252.0 as thats the thread on the isolation mount which IMOH is the biggest obstacle to overcome when civilizing a thumper.
                                                  Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

rcavictim

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 08:46:08 PM »
Biobill,

I couldn`t tolerate any noises or vibrations OR SMELLS from a thumper or banger in the house.  I just bought a Jiang Dong 175 and have set it up in the shop directly coupled to a 4 pole, 2 kW generating head to run tests making hot water and about 1 kW of juice to charge a battery bank for inverter drived 120 VAC. If I can tame this little beast I`d like to put it in my house garage or perhaps in the cement block cold room off the side of my basement.  I would need to circulated the coolant through a heat exchanger equipped domestic hot water tank and because there is no heat to throw away, that tank would have to be close to the engine.  I cannot put my hot water tank in the unheated garage, but that is where I`d prefer to put any diesel engine than in the house basement.

I`ll have this figured out at some point.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2006, 07:50:23 AM »
Quote from: rcavictem
I couldn`t tolerate any noises or vibrations OR SMELLS from a thumper or banger in the house. 

  Those are the three biggies as I saw them too, rca.

  I 'think' I've got the vibration licked. I've got about 80hrs on it and it seems to work fine, but those hours were not at full load. Just got  my transformer in today, http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1286.0 for explanation, and hopefully can do some full load testing tomorrow.

  The noises that I've still got to deal with are the engines mechanical noise. Exhaust and intake are plumbed to the outdoors. I mixed some moly paste (assembly lube) in with the oil I use for the exposed valve train, and that helped. Still have some idler gear noise but, thanks to xyzer, help is on the way. No way to get rid of the diesel knock but I may try some kind of a wrap around the top end to quiet it a bit. I had origionally planed an elaborate sound enclosure but don't think that it will be necessary. As it stands at this point, I've owned louder washing machines.

  Smells. I wouldn't have done this if I was burning a petroleum product. I know that sooner or later I would slobber something and that diesel smell really sticks around. Biodiesel (and wvo, svo, etc) is a whole different animal though. Very little odor as a liquid and better smelling when burnt. I tossed the stock breather assy and grafted on a check valve which vents into the intake. And, naturally there's a CO detector for safety. No smells that I can detect.

  I don't know what a Jiang Dong is. (if I had to guess out of context.... ;D) I'm guessing it's one of the 2200rpm horizontal Chinese jobs. I'd love to check one out sometime. Their counterbalanced aren't they? They put enclosures around noisy 3600 rpm air cooled gensets and quiet them right down. doesn't seem like it would be out of the question.

  I'm certainly not recommending installing engines in basements to anyone but for me it was the best choice. I start it at room temp no matter what the outdoor temp is. It's adding welcome heat to my home in the winter which is when its needed to charge batteries due to reduced solar input. It's convienent to plumbing and electric hookups and comfortable to work on. And I  kind of like having it so close by to make sure she doesn't get into any trouble.

                                            Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

biobill

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2006, 04:06:05 PM »
Got the transformer installed and loaded her up. No difference in perceived vibration ;D The damned thing works!
                                      Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

hotater

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 07:06:00 PM »
Water expansion---

Bill, after 190 hours of near  constant running on my 6-1 using a cast iron radiator and ten gallons of suplimental coolant.
  I've got a one gallon jug as an overflow with the overflow tube running to the bottom.  It starts out with an inch of fluid in the bottom.  At full hot it's 3/4 full.  The total cold to hot overfow in a 15 gallon system is about 5/8 gallon.

6-1 Jkson, 5kwST, 5700 alt., outside temp. minus 10F to +30.  About 1500 watts min. load/3000 watt max.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Quinnf

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Re: Water Expansion
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2006, 10:33:20 PM »
Mr. Ho-,

I had a few minutes and ran the calculations and it looks like you have about 4.5% expansion at just under boiling, though at your altitude, it would be a bit less than that.  Still safe to figure 4.5% of 15 gallons = 2.7 quarts should be your overflow capacity.  Your water boils at 202 degrees F or 94 deg. C.

Quinn

« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 10:53:25 PM by Quinnf »
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew